#9 Should Women EVER Initiate? PLUS Can Men & Women Ever Be "Just Friends"

In this episode of The Tinder Project, hosts Mark Rosenfeld and Teal Riege explore the dynamics of dating, focusing on the initiation of conversations and the complexities of friendships between men and women. They discuss an experiment on how women can initiate conversations on dating apps, the effectiveness of different types of openers, and the importance of vulnerability in relationships. The conversation also delves into whether men and women can truly be just friends, emphasizing the need for clear boundaries and mutual understanding. 

Main Takeaways 

*Women can initiate conversations, but it somewhat depends on your definition of 'initiate'. 
*Self-disclosure can lead to higher quality conversations. 
*Basic greetings can sometimes yield better responses than complex openers.
*Friendship between men and women is possible with clear boundaries.
*Vulnerability is essential for deepening relationships. 
*Initiation can be seen as an invitation rather than a direct approach. 
*Emotional vulnerability should be shared gradually. 
*Practice is key to becoming comfortable with vulnerability. 
*Environmental factors can influence relationship dynamics. 
*Mutual attraction can complicate friendships. 

Chapters 
0:00 Introduction 
0:57 Mark's 'Opening Message' Experiment 
2:17 The Four Types Of Openers We Used 
3:46 Which Openers Worked The Best 
8:43 Can Men And Women Be 'Just Friends'? 
13:47 Should Women EVER Initiate? 
31:15 Want To Speak With Us? 

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 0:57 Mark's 'Opening Message' Experiment
• 2:17 The Four Types Of Openers We Used
• 3:46 Which Openers Worked The Best
• 8:43 Can Men And Women Be 'Just Friends'?
• 13:47 Should Women EVER Initiate?
• 31:15 Want To Speak With Us? Book A 1-1 Call

Transcript

[Speaker 1]
Can men and women ever be just friends? And should you ever initiate as a woman? And if so, when?

We'll see you right after this. G'day and welcome to The Tinder Project, the podcast where a straight Aussie man attempts to survive 365 days dating online as an American woman. I'm your host, Mark Rosenfeld, Australia's dating coach for women.

I'm here with my sidekick, self-love coach, Teal Elizabeth. And together, we have one mission to make meeting good men fun and easy for you. Let's give it a go.

Teal.

[Speaker 2]
Hi, Mark.

[Speaker 1]
You're here.

[Speaker 2]
I'm still here.

[Speaker 1]
It's so wonderful to see your face. Are you feeling healthy?

[Speaker 2]
Thank you. I'm feeling good. Yep.

Baby's moving right along.

[Speaker 1]
All right. It's great to have you here, Teal.

[Speaker 2]
I couldn't miss this. I need to know. I need to get my weekly fix of The Tinder Project and what are the updates?

[Speaker 1]
Would you like to know how the project is going?

[Speaker 2]
I really do. Yes.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Team, we've got some big updates this week. So over the past month or so, I've been running an experiment where we are opening conversations, which is quite on theme for the topic of the night.

Should you initiate conversations as the woman? Now, the big caveat here with this particular experiment was we were only initiating with people who had not looked at our profile yet and who had not liked us. This is what you would call in marketing a cold audience or simply people online who haven't seen your profile yet.

So I wanted to do this because I was really curious, Teal, about the different types of responses. Can we mold a different conversational strength just by the way we open that conversation? What are the ramifications down the line depending on how we open the conversation as a woman?

And I want to particularly focus it on people who have no previous, who have not already decided they like us, because that's going to be a different subset of people. I want it on a cold audience. So this was interesting.

I tested on two different profiles. One of them was a 57-year-old and one of them was a 37-year-old. So we had a little bit of a difference in the age demographics and I got at least 30 samples on both sides.

Well, 30 of each type and there were four types. So I actually got 120 samples on each site. So I have 240 experimental results to report, but don't worry, I'm not going to list all 240.

I have summarized them down very nicely for us. So there were four types of openers that I tried. The first was a pattern interrupt.

It's basically where you say something ridiculous, something that's fun for you, something a bit off kilter. The second is a self-disclosure. So this is where you say something about yourself to the person.

At first glance, that might seem selfish, but it's actually how we often relate to people. For example, if I came up to you in a bar and I said, oh my God, that necklace is beautiful. It reminds me of one I saw during my trip in Bali.

We were there and I walked past this necklace stand. I'm relating to something I've noticed about you. That's a self-disclosure.

Now in a bar, we only really have what the other person is wearing to go on. But online, we have all these fun facts from the person's profile. So self-disclosures are quite easy to do.

The third was to simply ask a question. Pretty basic, ask someone a question about what is in their profile. In this case, a man.

And the fourth was even more basic. The good old, hey, a bill. Hey, Mitch.

Two words, put an emoji on it at least. And that's that. So any guesses as to what happened?

[Speaker 2]
Oh my gosh. I'm guessing the hey bills didn't get much. And the divulging a bunch, probably scared a bunch of people away.

I don't know. I think they probably all didn't really work. I don't think men want women to initiate.

I don't know. I'm really curious though.

[Speaker 1]
Interesting. Interesting. Okay.

So we found out a few interesting things. So the questions, as in asking a guy a question, did the worst overall. They got almost the least responses, not quite the least, but the subsequent quality of the conversation was the lowest.

In other words, the guy would answer the question, but that would be that. It put the woman in the masculine energy position, did not help extend the conversation. Unfortunately, kind of put the focus on the guy.

And that was that. I see this a lot online. Women get very exhausted or frustrated or tired of the process.

And I look at the conversation, they're asking all these questions when I look at them to drive the conversation forward. So they're in the driver's seat, they're in the masculine energy, and then they're hating their life. So it wasn't surprising to me that questions didn't do particularly well.

And in terms of quality, they were definitely the lowest. In terms of quantity of responses, we got the least actually with the self-disclosure. So we got the least responses when we talked about ourselves.

Interestingly, we did get the highest quality from doing that. So when a guy liked it, he liked it. Which makes sense because that's the way people tend to relate.

We relate to talking to each other. The sad result of all this that made me cry a little bit inside was that the basic boring, the hey-ya Mitch, or hey-ya Bill, really didn't do that badly compared to the others.

[Speaker 2]
What I'm hearing is that I was kind of right. None of them really worked all that well. Oh, I wouldn't- You're saying that there was a- Was there a winner out of- Because I'm not hearing a winner in any of these.

[Speaker 1]
Well, percentages-wise, I can give you winners. I can say self-disclosure led to the highest quality. That's pretty clear, but you'll get the least responses with it.

I can say that in terms of quantity, a pattern interrupt had the most fun and the most quality conversations. Sorry, the most quality. I said it wrong again.

The pattern interrupt led to the most fun and quantity of conversations, but it didn't necessarily move forward from there. I think what I realized doing this was that even when the basic boring runs did okay, what they're really saying is basically, look at my profile. It's a referendum on my profile.

You're not adding any real value, but you're saying, hey, if you like my profile, let's do this. And in some cases that actually worked and the guy said, all right, I'll take it from there.

[Speaker 2]
I could see that. It's almost like if you're at a bar and you're looking across the room at someone, it's like holding their gaze and saying, hi, I'm here. I see you without actually initiating much.

[Speaker 1]
Exactly. So I would say net results of this. I would use pattern interrupts sometimes to make it fun for you.

That's really where the most value is. The pattern interrupt conversations were hilarious. So add in a few of those every now and then, because you'll have a really fun conversation.

In general, I wouldn't advise you go after guys who have not liked your profile yet or have not matched with you. It's just not worth the time investment. You can occasionally get a good result by doing a self-disclosure, but the other downside of a self-disclosure is you have to kind of think it takes a minute or two to draft it up.

Probably about three minutes compared to a basic AO is about five seconds. So overall, I would say don't ask questions. Self-disclosures are fine, but they're really too much of a time investment in this scenario.

They're really good, but just not in this scenario. And if you're going to open, honestly, a pattern interrupt leads to some fun conversations and a basic boring is just to look at my profile. The final straw I would say is in general, you want to always be focusing on men who have liked your profile or already matched with you.

You're going to get a lot more bang for your buck there. But if you insist on opening conversation with someone, while a self-disclosure can lead to a great conversation, honestly, a hey-ya sadly breaks my heart a little bit because I really want us to be shining, but a hey-ya can actually do just fine. Hey your name with a good energy or even a fun pattern interrupt to make it fun for you.

[Speaker 2]
I love this. This is such gold, Mark. Thank you for going out and doing the dirty work for all our ladies and men, men, men, maybe listening to really make this so cut and dry.

[Speaker 1]
That is an interesting point because I would never, ever say that a man could get away with a basic boring. Guys, if you're listening... Go on, sorry.

[Speaker 2]
I was going to say, I guess unless he wants to attract another guy, but I guess we're mostly talking about heterosexual relationships here, right?

[Speaker 1]
We are. So I would say guys, if you're listening, don't be afraid to go with the question. Use a self-disclosure sometimes to share yourself as well.

And even the pattern interrupt can work for everyone because it creates a bit of fun and you will have some interesting conversations out of that.

[Speaker 2]
Because I will say the opposite for the men listening, if there are men listening, I hate a, hey, how's it going? From a man. That to me, disses me off so fast.

I don't even want to engage. I would much rather them actually put some effort into saying something that says, I've read your profile. I actually want to engage with you.

So I think it's interesting that there's a difference between the men. I think there is a difference.

[Speaker 1]
Yes.

[Speaker 2]
Shall we move on to, can men and women be friends? Yeah, this is going to be super interesting.

[Speaker 1]
What are your thoughts, Queen? All right, I want to hear. Is there always something there?

Is there always a little bit of lingering for you, in your opinion, or can men and women truly be friends and it be nothing more than that?

[Speaker 2]
Are we talking about in context of after dating or are we talking about literally just in general? Meeting a new person.

[Speaker 1]
Let's do the full in general.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah. I think, yes, they absolutely can just be friends. Even if there is a chemistry and a compatibility in there, I think as long as it's both very well established from the get-go, I think our brain can compartmentalize.

And we're very good about compartmentalizing. So we can put people in that box and just not go into that box. Take, for example, you and I, right?

You and I met. We both obviously love connecting with each other. We have a really easy witty banter back and forth.

But there's a very clear line for both of us. We're both married. We both have kids.

There's just, there's a box that we both have put ourselves into where we're not going to even consider that because that's not an option, right? And so for me, that to me makes it very cut and dry. I would never even consider something like that because it just gets to be this healthy friendship that develops.

And from that place, I think it can be a very organic, beautiful thing. I think what is tricky is that people don't necessarily trust themselves to stay in those boxes. They allow themselves to wander.

And when we don't have clear, firm boundaries, that's when we can get into messy territory. So I think if you trust yourself and you know that you are a respectable, loyal person to yourself and to whatever other people are in your life, then yes, it very much can happen. But I'm really curious to hear your thoughts.

[Speaker 1]
I like what you said there. And you and I also have that environmental setup. And like anything, when you've got the environmental setup, often the boundaries are really easy.

If you don't buy M&Ms at the store, it's kind of easy to go home and not eat them. So what about in a context here where there isn't those blocks? You know, neither of us are married.

We meet and start a podcast. We just want to be friends. Can it stay plutonic in your opinion, or does it get much harder if there aren't environmental barriers that are helping prevent more than friendship?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I think if one person has different expectations than the other person, then I think it can get really messy and then it's going to be hard. I think it really has to be a thing where both people very much clearly do not want to go there that keeps it in the friend zone. So I think, yes, it's possible.

But I don't know, I'm curious about your thoughts. What do you think about this?

[Speaker 1]
I think if both people, the key thing you said there is their chemistry and is their feelings. Obviously, if one person doesn't have them, then we all know what the friend zone is. We've all been stuck there at least once in our life.

So I think that goes without saying. I think the most interesting question here is if two people who find each other reasonably attractive have no environmental barriers stopping them, can they still do it? And I think the answer there is yes, but there has to be a reason.

There has to be a why. When you're married, there's a really obvious reason. When there is some sort of distance or incompatibility or some other piece, there's a really obvious reason.

But if there's not those things, then there has to be some other reason. Otherwise, there will usually be some sort of chemistry that gets acted on. Now, I guess the other question here is, well, what about when there are some barriers there, but maybe it's not so easy to maintain them?

Like let's say someone's in a relationship, but they have an attractive female friend that the friend also finds them attractive. And I think the real question there comes to impulse control, which is how good are individuals at saying, yes, I'm attractive, but I don't necessarily need to act on that. I can feel one thing without following my feelings.

You know, kids see ice cream, they eat it, right? It's just, there's no in-between thought there. But as adults, we have the ability to see ice cream and not eat it or see someone attracted to and not eat it.

So I do think for some people, and if there's an impulsivity challenge that you're struggling with, maybe you know a man who's struggling with it, and especially if the environment is not particularly well set up to support a decrease in impulsiveness, it can be very hard when there's mutual attraction. If any of those things are not true, as in if the environment's set up really well, if there are really good boundaries that are there for them, or if they have really good impulse control, those things should all be fine and you can have mutual attraction and have both people be friends. So I think it does come down to the individual a little bit, but as long as those character traits are there and ideally the environment is also set up for the two people to be friends, then there really shouldn't be any issues, especially if the people are a little bit older, age tends to go up, maturity, of course, and to a degree, impulse control, that will make things a lot easier too.

So bottom line, yes, have no issue with it.

[Speaker 2]
Yes, as long as you can trust yourself and hold back your impulses.

[Speaker 1]
Exactly right.

[Speaker 2]
Set the proper containers.

[Speaker 1]
Beautiful people are allowed to hang out and do no more than that too. There's nothing wrong with that. Initiation.

Let's talk about that.

[Speaker 2]
Yes. So I would love to hear your thoughts on this around do you think it's ever appropriate for women to actually initiate? We talked about this as like a test on the online dating apps and some of the apps obviously are set up like Bumble to initiate, but I would love to know as a man's perspective, do you think that's actually a good thing?

Do you think that there is a time and a place for women to initiate?

[Speaker 1]
So I have a bit of an interesting paradigm around this and it relates more to evolutionary psychology. In most animals, in the animal kingdom, the male waits for the female to become open and when she does, the males generally compete and make a move on her, which means that in most cases, it is the female demonstrating openness in some way, shape or form that has the male then act. And I don't see humans as being particularly different to that.

A woman giving a man eyes across the bar, a woman putting herself on a dating app, a woman showing up to a speed dating event, a woman even saying something like, I'm totally cool if you want to ask for my number. In most cases, I do think it is the woman initiating. It's just women should be good or women are quite good in flirting.

It should be that it's not really noticed. And so the way I see it is typically, if you get a guy drunk, it's different. In certain scenarios, it's a bit different.

But in most cases, the men are looking for signals from the women to act in the first place. And I think this is why playing it too cool. This is why resting bitch face.

This is why holding yourself back. It doesn't work because you're basically saying to the man, you're probably going to fail if you approach me. And especially if your girlfriends are around or someone else is around, the men aren't going to try.

Now you're smiling photos on a dating app are interesting because you're kind of saying, okay, you can approach me here in this weird environment where there's actually no shame in failure. So unfortunately what happens is a lot of the guys in that environment get a little bit lazy and you have to train them more to make yourself stand out as opposed to in a bar, they could never say or get away with the low levels of effort they can online. That's not a bad thing.

I mean, it's not ideal, but it's just the nature of the environment. And it's certainly a problem that can be overcome. But I guess my paradigm is a bit weird because I do see women as the initiators most of the time.

It's just men are the ones you actually see initiating following the woman's initiation. It can happen from the start when she gives him, as I say, that little bit of eye contact when she's on an app. And I have no issue with a woman sending a first message on an app.

I think when you are in that particular environment, just like in a bar, you will have to make eye contact with the guy. Otherwise there's lots of women in that bar. When you're on an app, you may need to do something to get noticed and your photos in some cases may not be enough.

Unfortunately, to stand you out from the thousands of other women. So I'm not opposed to a first message in that scenario. I don't think it puts you in the masculine position.

I'm opposed to chasing him and asking too many questions and that type of stuff, but I'm not opposed to starting it. Overall, we want the man leading, but a lot of the time it's the woman directing. And even if it's something like he's staying on text too long or he's asked you out to a date location you don't like, a lot of times it's you going to be signaling.

You're like the GPS. You're signaling where to go. So the woman has the power, but she's not doing the thing.

And because the woman has the power, a lot of times in a sense, she is going to be acting first. So I think it's actually quite normal and common for women to act first. And that's always been my paradigm on it.

But I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. I've had a little bit of a different perspective on it, but I really love what you bring to the table here. And I love that you bring the evolutionary psychology kind of background influence with that too.

By the way, I studied that in college. Couldn't tell you a thing about it.

[Speaker 1]
It's all gone.

[Speaker 2]
It's super important. It's super important. And you're right.

To me, I wouldn't even call it initiation, what you're talking about. Like you said, it's an invitation. It's an opening.

It's a heart opening energy. I see it. So I'm going to bring the energetic spiritual perspective, right?

To me, it's the, I'm shining the light. And a mentor talked about this beautifully, like a lighthouse, right? We're not doing anything, but we're shining the light, like a lighthouse out into the darkness, out into all the beautiful ships out on the sea.

These eligible men that are floating around in the darkness, bumbling around, trying to find their woman. And we're saying, here's my light. Here it is.

If you'd like to come towards me, here's how you get in, right? And so like you were saying, we're guiding it. We're guiding the path forward, but we're not taking the action.

But you're right. It is so important that men feel that and know that there is that invitation because if that is shut down or we're playing it too cool, you're 100% right. Men are just going to, they're not going to see that light in the dark.

They're just going to keep moving past. So I think everything you said was spot on. To add on to that, I think what I, a lot of women ask me this because they get really hung up on this too.

Should I initiate? I don't know. I need to be feminine.

How do I do this? And the way I say it is there's no right or wrong way to do it. It's all about how you feel when you're in that place of wanting to initiate.

Because to me, what you do is so much less of the gesture more than what the energy is coming through that gesture. So if you were to initiate and you're feeling insecure and you're feeling like you really need this just to make yourself feel better, you had a really shitty day, you just want some validation from a man or some attention and you're reaching out, say, hey, how's it going? I'd love to hang out sometime, right?

That energy is coming through with this icky, nasty, needy energy, right? And men are going to feel that and that instantly is repulsive. They may not say that but that's what they're feeling when they come through with it.

Whereas if you're totally in a place of just really chilling and loving life and you just had a great day and you just want to connect and yeah, you've been meeting with this or talking to this guy and you want to kind of take things forward and just saying, hey, you would feel great to connect sometime and get some breakfast or something. That is going to come through in a very different energy that he's going to pick up on and receive as much more of an invitation than this needy, clingy, I need to drive this forward kind of thing. So for my guidance always is check in with how you feel before you take that first step, whether it's just an open heart invitation or a full-on directive, let's do this to make sure that it's coming through from a place of alignment in your heart and showing your best self.

[Speaker 1]
I like that a lot. And I think we're very similar. Would you call checking in and doing the shining the light an action?

Or is it more to you a relaxation? In a sense, it sounds like the way you define it.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, I think it was more of a relaxation.

[Speaker 1]
A relaxation. And I think that's, it's semantics. But we're kind of saying the same thing here.

Probably so, yep. There will still be, it can't just be, okay, I'm going to kind of do nothing, say nothing and stay exactly where I am and assume that all the guys know. There's still an act there.

There's still something that's doing. But I like the phrasing of it's more something I'm being and it's the way I'm showing up that allows the guys to see the light and kind of draw them in like boats to the lighthouse. Not that boats, I get the metaphor though.

You know what I mean? Yeah, I'm here with you. No, I really like that.

So there's a certain element, let's call it female initiation. What you would say, shining the light. And I think there's a certain big element of vulnerability to it.

Because even just shining your eyes, there's always still that opportunity or potential for rejection there. There's always a little bit of fear with it. And I think there's a beautiful balance there because the woman will have that little bit of fear when she opens herself and she shines that.

He may not receive it. He may float the other way and that's totally fine. And then he also has that little bit of fear when he comes over and tries it with you and you could reject him.

He doesn't know that. And I think it's that shared vulnerability that gets under-emphasized these days. Because at the end of the day, that's what a relationship is.

It's shared vulnerability. It's you take a risk, I'll take a risk and we go one layer deeper. You take a deeper risk, I take a deeper risk.

We go one layer deeper. And usually for the woman, the risk is her opening her heart. And usually for the man, the risk is moving things forward and her not going with him.

[Speaker 2]
There's a- Beautifully said, beautifully said. Thank you, Teal. I appreciate that.

[Speaker 1]
And it's that dance, right? It's that together vulnerability where it's, now I have your heart and you have mine. But because we're in this together, we now both have skin in the game.

And it's that shared vulnerability that not only bonds us, but keeps us from wanting to invest in anyone else because we have that sort of shared investment, that shared connection there.

[Speaker 2]
Yes, yes. And ladies, this is so important. Everything Mark's saying is so important.

We have to be able to let him in a little bit in the beginning. It's not about prying open our heart and saying, here's my heart, please don't break my heart. It's about slowly, gently opening it a little bit to let them feel it just a little bit more over time building that comfortable vulnerability.

Because I think vulnerability can sometimes get thrown into the deep end right away. And it doesn't have to be that. It can be tiny little emphasis of vulnerability.

And it has to be tested and gut checked consistently over time because that's how you know if he can go there with you into the heart space, into the depths. If you don't let him in gently and slowly while still keeping it strong in your heart, then you won't know if he's actually has the emotional ability to go there. Because I think things get rushed.

Either we jump into, let's meet the friends, let's go out on a weekend getaway and we haven't gotten to the emotional vulnerability space. We're just jumping down the timeline of doing things. Or we jump way too fast into the vulnerability space and then he freaks out and pulls way back and leaves us heartbroken, right?

That's what I see happen a lot. So what you're saying is this beautiful, slow development of unfolding and layering, deepening, deepening is that beautiful, healthy path forward for both people.

[Speaker 1]
Right, because we've all been on dates where someone showed up with vulnerability that was vastly too much inappropriate for the scenario. A lot of us when we think vulnerability, we think of those situations and we think, oh gosh, I don't wanna be that. I had someone show up to a date and spew vulnerability on me and then I had to leave and run away and then he was all hurt.

We don't want that done to us and you don't wanna do it to others either. Vulnerability at the beginning is simply an opening of the heart as Teal's pointing out. So even something as simple as sharing a passion, sharing a feeling, showing enthusiasm for something, these are feelings and therefore they are forms of vulnerability.

And usually as the woman, and this is kind of the risky part on the woman's side is usually as the woman, she'll be leading the opening of the emotional space. I think I've said this to you before, Teal, if there's a physical space, you want the man to explore it. So if there's any dangers, he will be the one vulnerable to the dangers, not you.

In the emotional space, the woman's breath will keep the man safe. Let's say you show up to a date and you are two out of 10 vulnerable and you start there because you say, okay, this is how I wanna show up because this is how I want the man to reciprocate. And obviously you're gonna attract what you are.

So your two out of 10 vulnerability might be enthusiastically sharing a passion, telling a cool story from your childhood that meant a lot to you, maybe talking about one little fear that you have. It doesn't have to be, here's my STD history. It's actually a lot of heart opening stuff.

And oftentimes the person will come along with you and then he'll share an equally exciting or an equally vulnerable or an equally something story, or he'll just be enamored and fascinated by your stories and kind of wanna go there with you. But other times he won't be able to match you or God forbid, he might shame you or say something negative. In which case, while A, it's a win because you've shown up as a person you wanted to show up as, and B, you're not gonna be too hurt because at the end of the day, it was only a level two out of 10.

So it's not so bad that he's cutting into a deep psychological wound that you're still working through in therapy. But you do need to lead with that little bit of vulnerability. And even today, Theo, in the training, I was going over a text conversation I had as part of a Tinder project.

And I was looking at the emotional bumps between the man and the woman. And we were looking at about eight times as many emotional expressions on the woman's side of the conversation as the man's. And even something as simple as, hey, I had dinner with my uncle and it was super fun and enjoyable.

That's a one out of 10 vulnerability because you're sharing a value, sharing something that's important to you, you're sharing something unique to you and you're sharing the feelings that go with it, which is heart opening unto itself. And a man online is not getting a lot of that because everyone's just boring and not typing much and not really talking about themselves at all or asking too many questions. So already you're standing out with vulnerability.

The guys, the right guys are gonna lean into that, go there with you and appreciate it and share some of their own. And then it's like a shared step up together. It's like a group project.

All right, you do a five and I'll do a five. And we can't wait and say, I'll do it when he does it first. That's fine in the physical realm.

I have found in the emotional realm, it doesn't really cut it. If you wait for the man to be vulnerable first, you're keeping your heart closed to keep yourself safe. And unfortunately, the guys who want an open-hearted woman will have lost interest in you by then.

And you're gonna attract guys that actually like you with the closed heart, which is not the type of person who's gonna give you a good experience a few weeks, months or years from now.

[Speaker 2]
Gosh, Mike, I think this is just a full-on training right now. Ladies, I hope you're taking notes because there is some serious wisdom being dropped right now. Should we start charging for those?

No, we shouldn't.

[Speaker 1]
We wouldn't do that to you.

[Speaker 2]
No, this is the truth. This is absolutely the truth. This is the meat and potatoes of it all.

It really is these dynamics.

[Speaker 1]
So I think bottom line, we're hearing here, initiation, there will be something that comes from the woman's energy. Depending on your perspective, you could say it's something she does or simply something she relaxes into. There will be something that comes from your energy that creates an open-heartedness, a light, a vulnerability that draws them in.

And in that sense, one could argue that women do do some of the initiating. However, it's not going to be an initiating that is overtly obvious. It's not going to be you necessarily driving things forward or leading the conversation or even approaching him, anything like that.

It's going to be subtle. It's going to be like a light shining and the right guy is going to pick up on that. But if you don't do it, you will probably find that the wrong guys pick up on you or worse, you'll get guys who are just kind of looking at you for the physical, which I guess falls under the wrong guys as well, and not really wanting to know your heart.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 1]
And we don't want you falling into that trap, do we, Tia?

[Speaker 2]
And I just want to reassure everyone that this is not something that everyone just gets off the top of their head. This is why we're talking about it. This is because this takes a lot of practice.

And if any of you are needing help with this, this is exactly what Mark and I do is we support women in learning how to drop into that vulnerable space. And we're very good at it. It's supporting you and helping you through this.

So just know that this is something that takes practice. It takes baby steps. You do not need to jump in the deep end with any of this.

It's just about letting yourself start to realize and ask yourself, where might I actually be holding back? Where might I be thinking I'm being feminine by not initiating, but actually I'm being cold and shut down. And instead saying, okay, how do I learn how to gently open up in a way that feels safe to me, that feels good to me, that allows men in.

And it's gonna feel a little scary. I'm just gonna warn you. I remember the first time I started practicing this.

Oh my God, I think I had to take a shot. This is so bad. I was just learning how to do this.

I had to take a shot before my now husband came over for a date because I was so nervous. I was like, I'm gonna say something vulnerable and I'm really afraid and I need a little liquid courage, but it worked. It worked so well.

And I was like, oh my God, I just figured something out here. So just know you're not alone in this.

[Speaker 1]
Do you know what's funny about that? Sam did the same thing on our first date, which was she went downstairs. We were at a concert thing and she went downstairs and I can't remember if I saw her.