#12 Mark Gets Abandoned AND When Is The Best Time To SLEEP With A Man?

In this engaging conversation, Mark Rosenfeld and Teal Elisabeth discuss various aspects of dating, focusing on the Tinder project, personal updates, and insights into dating dynamics. They share results from the Tinder project, including statistics on matches and conversations. Mark recounts a dating horror story that highlights the challenges of connecting in person versus online and over the phone, especially when long distance. The discussion also delves into the topic of when to sleep with a man, emphasizing the importance of self-respect and understanding relationship dynamics. The conversation concludes with reflections on dating experiences and advice for listeners.

Takeaways
Mark shares his August Tinder project results, highlighting impressive match rates.
Teal discusses the importance of vitamin D during pregnancy.
Mark recounts a dating horror story that emphasizes the challenges of in-person connections.
The conversation explores the dynamics of initiating intimacy in relationships.
Teal emphasizes the need for women to trust themselves regarding sexual relationships.
Mark discusses the significance of clarity in dating and communication.
The duo reflects on the impact of rejection on personal growth and resilience.
Teal warns against love bombing and its effects on relationships.
Mark shares insights on the importance of setting standards in dating.
The conversation concludes with advice on navigating dating and intimacy.
titles

Chapters
0:00 Introduction
0:34 Teal's Vitamin D Project
2:47 Days 31-60 Tinder Project RESULTS!
10:51 Mark's Dating HORROR Story
22:23 The Importance Of REJECTION For Men
24:25 When Is The BEST Time To Sleep With A Man
29:51 Mark's Personal Experience Of Timing + Dating Intimacy
33:51 Teal's Perspective On The TIMING Of Intimacy
41:30 Want Personal Help? Book A Call!

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 0:00 Mark's Personal Experience Of Timing + Dating Intimacy
• 0:34 Teal's Vitamin D Project
• 2:47 Days 31-60 Tinder Project RESULTS!
• 10:51 Mark's Dating HORROR Story
• 22:23 The Importance Of REJECTION For Men
• 24:25 When Is The BEST Time To Sleep With A Man?
• 29:51 Mark's Personal Experience Of Timing + Dating Intimacy
• 33:51 Teal's Perspective On The TIMING Of Intimacy
• 41:30 Want Personal Help? Book A Call!

Transcript

[Speaker 1]
How I did during the second month of the Tinder Project, one of my biggest dating horror stories and when is the best time to sleep with a man. We'll see you right after this. G'day and welcome to the Tinder Project, the podcast where a straight Aussie man attempts to survive 365 days dating online as an American woman.

I'm your host, Mark Rosenfeld, Australia's dating coach for women. I'm here with my sidekick, self-love coach, Teal Elizabeth, and together we have one mission to make meeting good men fun and easy for you. Let's give it a bell.

Teal!

[Speaker 2]
This enthusiasm just gets more and more each week. I love it.

[Speaker 1]
You look slightly more tanned than you did last week.

[Speaker 2]
I have a secret to admit. Yes, I have homework from my midwives and they literally tell me, we need you out sunbathing to get your vitamin D. They say vitamin D supplements aren't going to cut it.

We need you out in the sun, which I'm like, okay, yep, yep. Apparently this is the phase of building collagen and building the bones and the calcium and all that. So I haven't taken the day to answer client messages and lay in the sun all day.

It's been fabulous.

[Speaker 1]
All day you've been in the sun. How many hours have you been out in the sun, Teal? I have a sneaking suspicion that you would be out in the sun regardless.

Tell me I'm wrong. Are you a bit of a, are you a bit of a sunbather in general? I get the impression.

[Speaker 2]
No, I'm actually, I know, but I, I tend to exaggerate. It was about 15 minutes. I'm really pale.

I don't want to burn.

[Speaker 1]
I'm even more pale than Teal. So to all our listeners, we recommend sunbathing for no more than 15 minutes. That's about as long as Teal and I can last in direct sunlight.

[Speaker 2]
It really lifts the spirits and hopefully it's lifting my baby's spirits too.

[Speaker 1]
How are you? Is the pregnancy going well?

[Speaker 2]
It's yeah, it's going really well. I feel so blessed and so grateful that everything's going smoothly. Yeah.

And how's your little one still trucking along?

[Speaker 1]
She's beautiful. Yeah. She's getting more chatty.

She had one of her vaccinations yesterday, so her legs are a little bit red. So we felt bad for her, but I have to say this vaccination was nowhere near as bad as the last one. The last one was 10, 10, 20 minutes, which could be a lot worse than that to be fair.

I mean, I've heard of all day, multiple day reactions, but this was the last one was 10, 20 minutes of sort of screaming, bloody murder. Yesterday it was 10 seconds and then she's been a bit uncomfortable and sleepy and a little bit warm on, on, on the legs. So I sort of was worried about, does she have an infection or something, but she's not running a fever.

She seems completely fine. So she's good. We're excited to get the vaccinations over.

I always feel a little bit bad kind of taking her there, but I figure it's the right thing to do. Yes. Shall I give you my update on the project?

[Speaker 2]
Yes, let's hear it.

[Speaker 1]
Shall we dive into it? So Teal, I have the August numbers, which is very exciting. You know how I love the numbers and the tracking.

It's not, it's not all in a day.

[Speaker 2]
I'm getting more excited about the numbers too. The more you're sharing the numbers.

[Speaker 1]
Good. I'm glad. I'm glad that passion is coming across.

Uh, so I'm going to bring up my, my few little numbers here for August. So in the month of August, I was only running one profile in August. In the month of August, I viewed 61 profiles as in, I looked at 61 men's profiles, two a day, roughly.

In that time I liked, or we actually liked and therefore matched because we're using the paid version. So we're taking people from the likes queue. So everyone we're looking at has already liked us.

So we liked back 35 out of 61 Teal, which is over 50%, over 50%. That number might be crazy to you guys sitting at home. Yeah.

It's, it's, it's kind of insane actually. Cause I say to my clients, if you guys can hit 20%, that's brilliant. Uh, that's kind of my, my ideal for clients.

It's, it's not always possible. We've got to refine the profiles a little bit to kind of help them hit it and feel okay about it. But 20% is damn solid.

So 50% is actually insane. Um, we had a good run. I think we set up the profile really well.

It kind of shows what's possible. And obviously we're keeping an open mind to, to different people. These are people who have pretty good profiles themselves and have put in effort.

So 35 out of 61, uh, we had conversations with 32. So this month we were starting some conversations and letting the guys start others. About two thirds of the conversations were started by the guys and about one third by us.

So I have 32 conversations out of 35 matches. So most of the people we chatted to that we matched with, um, here's the cool part of those 32, we gave our number to 16.

[Speaker 2]
Wow. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
Pretty good, right? 16 proceeded to, we gave our number to 16. Now out of 16, could you guess how many followed through, finished the loop and gave us the phone call out of 16?

What do you reckon?

[Speaker 2]
I'm just going to follow along with these numbers and go with eight, half of that.

[Speaker 1]
13.

[Speaker 2]
Wow. Wow. Okay.

You are doing something right here. Definitely.

[Speaker 1]
Pretty, pretty solid. And I think we saw a similar number the previous month between about 60 and 75%. Now this is the ideal, obviously I'm coaching this every day.

So if you're listening at home, if you're kind of getting half that and you're working up towards that, you're thinking, Oh, about maybe 40% of the guys I give my number, 45 are getting on the phone with me. That's pretty bloody good. You know, that's getting up there.

You can be excited about that. When you really dial this in, you'll find that the majority, you can move over there. It takes a little bit of finesse is the word that I really liked that Teal used.

It takes a little bit of finesse, a little bit of man training and a little bit of timing. And I think as I go through this more, there's a really interesting, I can't remember if I talked to you about this Teal, but there's a kind of, there's an, there's an energetic, uh, think of it as like a peak. It kind of starts and then it goes up and it peaks and then, and then it comes down.

And you got to kind of feel when that peak is because that peak of energy is when the guy is the most into you and the most likely to follow through with the call. If you text too long, inevitably, no matter how wonderfully amazing spectacular of a texter you are, it just gets boring. It's text message.

It's like not what our brains are designed to respond to. But obviously if you do it on the first message, nine times out of 10, you've not created enough separation of yourself from the other people online for the guy to go, okay, there's plenty of women here. Why should I call you out of all of them?

So there's a sweet spot and it's typically between two and eight exchanges. Most of the time, it's in that window where the energy kind of peaks. And if you keep texting after that, it slowly trails away.

So I think the art that I'm finding of, of really mastering, getting plenty of dates offline from, from not talking to that many people is in just identifying that sweet spot, creating it first of all, by having good energy yourself and then identifying it. And if you can identify it, and even I don't get it perfect. So it's sort of a little bit of a field guessing game for me.

If you can get that right, you can get that phone call percentage up pretty high as in the percentage of guys that you give your number to. And remember, you can give them a second phone number if you're worried about privacy, the percentage of guys that you give your number to, a decent chunky majority are following through and calling, not just calling, but calling when you have set them up to do so. So 13 for the month, final results.

[Speaker 2]
I love it. I love this really, I hope brings some inspiration and hope to our listeners that there are good men that are ready to follow through that want to actually take this off the apps. It's not just a swiping fest all the time.

This is really good. Really, really good. I am curious because you are a man as a woman connecting to men, is there some subjectivity that maybe that's not the right word?

The attractiveness factor is a piece, right? And, and because you're not an actual woman investing in, wow, this really could be someone and I have to feel attracted to them to want to actually talk to them. Are you taking that into account as well?

Like, do they seem like attractive men or are we just picking all the, the low lives that are really sweet, but are really not attractive? What's wrong with homeless men?

[Speaker 1]
Don't be, don't be, you have homelessness-ism, Teal.

[Speaker 2]
I didn't say homeless. I did not say homeless.

[Speaker 1]
I'm just joking. I'm just kidding guys. No, so I have my clients help me with that actually, because I do most of my demos live with clients and they watch and they observe and we learn some things in it.

So typically for my 20 minutes a day, they are with me. So I'll say, ladies, you know, who, what do you think of these profiles? Who would you give a chance to?

Who wouldn't you to? So I've got women with me when I'm doing this 95 times out of a hundred, probably 98 really. So I do have a little vetting team that helps me make the decisions.

[Speaker 2]
That's awesome. Okay.

[Speaker 1]
And we're aiming for that, like at least as sort of a five, six out of 10 is kind of what we're aiming for. Now, sometimes you'll have a day where you go through 10 profiles and you'll just have a batch where you go, Oh, this is, what is this Tuesday? This is a disaster.

Like what is happening today? And you might get one out of 10 that day. So that's 10%, but then we'll have other days where we go, we had four out of six today, four out of six were like, yeah, this is a decent, decent-ish person.

Now, are they all, for example, the perfect height, or if you're attracted to like the perfect race or the perfect ethnicity or the perfect job or the perfect like X thing? No, no. There are a variety of successful, cool people who all have their own little way of showing themselves off.

Some are outdoorsy, some are professional, some are just look like genuinely good people. Some have dogs, some have cats, some have neither. There's a whole mix.

So I'm not filtering for super specific things like that. It's really the approach of, okay, who would we talk to at a party? Not be grossed out by, at least could be a little bit curious about.

And then we go from there with the phone call. And once you're actually speaking to someone, then you can be a lot more, I suppose, discriminative might be the good word for it to kind of say, this is who I connect with. This is who I don't, but we don't want to be too picky before that point because it's so easy for our brain to try to look at all these photos, all these hundreds of photos and be so overwhelmed that it just picks the one person or two people that it thinks are our quote unquote type, which is usually the worst way to pick people online.

So I'm sort of putting that aspect of our brain aside and just saying, Hey, let's see if we can hit at least 20% of these people, the 20% best of these people. Somehow we hit over 50 and that that's crazy, but we try to hit at least 20 every day.

[Speaker 2]
Keep it up. What you're doing is working. This is exciting.

Thanks for the update.

[Speaker 1]
Do you have any questions or any kind of curiosities on this to you?

[Speaker 2]
I think that was my main question. You answered that really well. And I think that's going to be a big question for the listeners too.

Yeah. But what I actually want to know more of is your, your dating horror story because you cleverly left that out and just left me high and dry.

[Speaker 1]
You know, I was thinking, I was thinking we're kind of running short on time this week. Maybe we kick it.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, this week? No, no, no, no. We've got time.

We've got time to hear this. I did want to admit, I did, but no, I'll save that for later. You go ahead.

[Speaker 1]
I want to hear this. So this was back. I must've been 22 at the time, perhaps really early dating for me.

I was still going out a ton, still trying to build up my social skills, still really just trying to improve myself. And I hadn't met that many women I was attracted to yet, but I'd started to meet a couple. I started to meet a couple that I said, no, this, this, this, this woman's really attractive.

We'll call them girls at the time because a lot of the, I was 23, that was sort of 20, 19, 21, that sort of age group. So it was pretty young women. Anyway, I was at a place and the, anyone who's Aussie will know the place and probably laugh at this back in like the early, what was it?

Late 2000s or early 2010s. It's called the Regatta. It still exists today.

It was upgraded significantly during the, there was a tangent, but there was all these massive floods in Brisbane in 2011 and the whole place got wrecked and they completely upgraded everything. Cause they said, we're no longer want to attract this terrible crowd we've been attracting. We're going to upgrade the whole, the whole joint.

But anyway, I was there before they upgraded it during the, during the best of times. And the place was, was kind of a mess. But you'd meet some fascinating people there.

It was crazily busy. Like can't move around busy every Wednesday night. And I met this woman there and got chatting to her in an area called the Boatshed.

The Brisbaneites will know it. Anyway, we got chatting and it turned out, I mean, she was so attractive. I just like, she had this beautiful kind of gingery red hair, brilliant smile, very pretty eyes.

I was into her from the get go. So we got chatting and I was still pretty, pretty nervous, but you know, I was enjoying the conversation with her and we got chatting and eventually she said, look, I'm actually not, you know, here for much longer. I'm from down South.

And I went, yeah, cool. Okay. Tell me more about that.

And she went, oh, I'm actually traveling up from Tasmania. Now for those that don't know, the Aussies in the room, Tasmania, it's a bit of an interesting place. But you know what?

This woman was so beautiful and so attractive. I was a hundred percent okay with that. So I said, yeah, cool.

Tasmania. Love it. So we connected and we, we seem to, we seem to like have a good connection, enjoy talking to each other.

And because she was kind of leaving the next day or two, there wasn't really time to take her out. So took her number, started calling her. Now she was not due to return up to Queensland for, I think it was about 10 to 12 weeks, about three months.

So I was kind of, I was really into her and I was keeping her, you know, I was calling her a couple of times a week. I would text her a lot and we started to get kind of close. It got to the point where we're chatting a few times a week.

We were planning dates forward. I was thinking about her, you know, quite, quite a regular period of periodicals throughout the day. Um, and her name was Rachel actually.

And so I was starting to think about Rachel more and more kind of as the weeks went on and we were talking about like what we do, some sexting got involved. Um, it was, it was getting pretty spicy and we were like, we were multi-dating at the time. We kind of knew that.

And so I was dating, sort of dating one other woman. Um, but I was really into Rachel. So I was starting to think, you know, Rachel's bloody amazing.

Like this could be actually someone I could potentially see myself committing to, you know, we talked about what we wanted for the future, blah, blah, blah. So things are going really well. And she started to plan her trip to come back up and we basically said, okay, we're going to connect.

We're going to, you know, we're going to go on this big long day date. We're going to go down to South Bank. We're going to hang out all day.

You know, I was hoping that I could take her back to my place later in the evening and we'd hang out there. Um, she was staying at a hotel, but, um, we were, we planned to connect for a lot to it. So she arrives.

This was, as I say, about 10 weeks after we met, she arrives and we decided to meet up down at South Bank to kind of start our date. And immediately as this date kind of started, I just, I couldn't put my finger on what it was, but we weren't connecting the way we were connecting over the phone. Something was off.

Yeah. It was something was just off and I couldn't figure out why, because she was, she was there, but she was kind of like a little bit cold almost. And she didn't seem to be having much fun.

Um, I sort of suggested a couple of things we could do. She sort of like shrugged and didn't seem particularly into the ideas. So I'm starting to feel more and more insecure.

You know, I've been waiting for this moment for like 10 weeks and this is pretty much one of the first women I've ever dated and certainly one of the first women I was really attracted to. So I'm just thinking in my head, I'm starting to spin. I'm going, what, what's going on?

This is something's off here. Um, and I'm thinking, here's my logic at the time. I'm thinking, okay, maybe she's just like losing attraction for me for some reason.

And that was most of my paradigms at the time. So I'm thinking, okay, I guess I've got to do some stuff to, to be more attractive and to be more interesting. Uh, maybe I need to be like more on my masculine and take more of the leadership role.

Maybe be more decisive. Cause I'd read a lot about how important that was and how women found it attractive. Um, so I sort of started saying, okay, come on, like we're going to go do this now.

Or, or, or, and I can't remember exactly what the idea was. It's just over a decade ago now. Um, that ages me, doesn't it?

But I started to try to take more of the lead in the data. So that was my plan. Um, I said, all right, I'm going to be more decisive, try to be more attractive here.

And it didn't seem to be working. She just kind of, I remember saying, all right, come on, we're going to head down here. We're going to go get, I think it was like a, there was something that wasn't the museum, but it was something in that area.

I was like, oh, come on, we're going to go check this out. It's going to be great. And she's like, ah, yeah, I don't really know.

Um, maybe we like jump on the train and go, go somewhere else. I was like, nope, come on, we're going to go do this. Let's go do that.

Um, and eventually, so we get to the, I think the, I think the logic in the end Teal was that we decided we were going to take the train to the next place, which was kind of like the place I suggested, but I really didn't want to take the train for some reason. Um, but she was so insistent and I was just getting so insecure. I'm like, what, what is going on?

Like I have no lead over this day. I'm feeling really insecure about what's happening and I can feel the tension is just like getting weird. So we, we end up at the train station and I'm spinning at this point.

I'm like, what do I do here? We're at the train station and she basically kind of tried to, I guess, take the lead as well. And she's like, all right, come on, let's get on the train.

And she, she gets, the train pulls up and she gets on the train. I was like, nah, Rach, come on, we're going this way. I'm still on the platform and she's on the train.

She's like, come on, we're going this way. I'm like, no, no, no, come on, let's, let's go down here. I think I wanted to get to the next carriage or something, or I wanted to move forward.

I was like, nope, come on, let's, let's go down. And then I realized what was happening. I was like, fuck the train doors are about to shut.

And I had this moment of literally this is, this is my insecurity at the time. I had this moment of, all right, I can be the beta male and just follow her and do what she says, or I can stick to my concierge and be what I perceived at the time to be the alpha who had some control of the situation. And beep, beep, beep, train doors shut.

I was just like, I don't know what's happening here. I don't know what's going on. Train leaves station.

That was the end of the date of the last I ever heard from her.

[Speaker 2]
Oh my gosh.

[Speaker 1]
That was it.

[Speaker 2]
You didn't even like, you guys didn't text again or call again?

[Speaker 1]
I think from memory, I think I might've sent one text, which didn't get a response. I honestly can't remember the exact contents of it, but that, that was it. That was how like 10 to 12 weeks of consistent phone dating and excitement.

It went for about an hour and then she got on the train and I didn't want to follow her. And that was, that was it. That was done.

[Speaker 2]
I'm sorry. That's just, she sounds like a bitch.

[Speaker 1]
You don't deserve her. Thanks for validating me too. Thanks for that.

I don't, I don't know what ever happened with that. I'll never know to this day. And I was so embarrassed at the time.

I kind of like pretended I wasn't, but I was so embarrassed at the time. Oh, I did something wrong. I, I, she wasn't attracted to me for some reason.

Then I did more wrong. And I, I, I think that was another reason there was no follow up. As I said, I might've sent one text, but after that, I was just like so embarrassed that I was, I was, there's no recovery from that.

How do you get over the awkwardness of, we were just like, had a fight on our first date and she took the train and disappeared. Like I just, I just left in the past.

[Speaker 2]
Better to leave it and let it die on the train track.

[Speaker 1]
Man, I've never, I don't think I've ever told that one before.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, but you know, I'm glad you stood up for yourself and you, yeah, didn't just follow her and go, okay, whatever you want. You know, that was good of you to do that.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. I mean, I guess it, I don't know if it worked, but it did something.

[Speaker 2]
It's called self-respect.

[Speaker 1]
Still so weird because up until that point, I thought things were going to go so well that day and I was so excited for that day just to go, yeah, this is going to be a great date. Really looking forward to this. This one, you know, this is one of the, this was kind of, as I say, I was seeing one other woman at the time, but other than that, I said, this is one of the best women that I've really connected with in this whole process.

And she disappeared on the train in like an hour. And I went, ah.

[Speaker 2]
That's the thing. Even if, if I was in her shoes and I had been, you know, building it up and building up with this guy and he was so excited. And then I get there and I'm like, oh shit, you know what?

I'm not actually as into him as I thought. I would still enjoy the day as much as I could, you know, as friends. I'd put you in the bucket and I'd say, okay, let's go have some fun as friends.

And then if you tried to make a move on me, I'd be like, you know what? I'm sorry. I don't know if this is going to work.

And be at least nice about it. Right? I don't know.

Would you rather have that or would you rather her just be weird all day?

[Speaker 1]
I don't even know, to be honest. Obviously during the day, it's nicer if you have someone you're connecting with. But if at the end of the day she says, I think I just see you as a friend, Mark.

That's like the dagger in the heart. No, no, don't say that to me, please. No, God.

[Speaker 2]
Oh, the words of death. So then she's just taking one look at you and going, okay, damn, I had drunk goggles on. See you later.

Not going to go on this date with you. Would that have been better?

[Speaker 1]
I honestly don't know. Short of like her deciding before the date and making up a reason, like saying, Hey, you know, I met someone or I'm just not feeling it anymore or whatever. Short of that, I don't know how she could have got there and essentially if, assuming she did change her mind based on something she saw, which I don't know if she did or not, but if that was the case, there's really no good way out of that, is there?

There's just like, I'm going to be disappointed and embarrassed no matter what ending that is. But I actually, I do think that's a good thing for guys to experience because this is probably a deeper conversation. It might be a topic for another day, but one of the most valuable things for me was all the rejection I went through over and over and over again to build resilience.

And it's still a good thing for me to experience in business that I, that I worked through a lot. So it just helped me grow as a man. And it's really interesting.

I don't know if you chat to many Gen Zers and I don't know if we even have a ton of you as listeners, but I do think it's one of the challenges for men these days is that rejection is so important to a man's growth, especially romantic rejection and the resilience that comes with it. But when you have viralness, reels, TikTok, and the ability for a rejection from a single woman to, to provocate throughout the entire school or I suppose college environment, maybe less so high school environment, it makes you risk averse. And there's more and more studies coming out that are showing how smart Gen Z is and how educated they are, but also how risk averse they are.

And I suspect for the men, that's part of it because as a man, it's like you want to be able to take risk and fail at things, hopefully without bringing too much shame or embarrassment to yourself. It's bad enough if her friends laugh at you, let alone the whole school. So I think it's a genuine, it's a genuine challenge for, for young men.

And I'm kind of glad that I got to fail so much in a, in an age before smartphones, because it gave me the opportunity to just make an absolute arse of myself without it being so public. And now the temptation as a young man, I could totally see is to play it safe a bit more. You don't want to upset a woman.

You don't want to make it weird. You don't want, certainly we don't want her to talk about it to all the followers on social media because most women have more than most men. Let's be honest, bloody hard spot for young men to be in.

I don't envy it, but you have a son. So it'll be something that you help him through in the future.

[Speaker 2]
Oh God, God help me. I'm just hoping I can raise him to be a smart, powerful, beautiful gentleman, you know, to give these ladies something really special. Yeah.

That's my goal.

[Speaker 1]
That's very sweet too.

[Speaker 2]
But now let's talk about something that's a little more risky, a little risque. When to sleep with a man. When to dive into the juicy juiciness of that next level.

I'm, I'm kind of curious to hear. Yeah. Here's to hear your thoughts as a man, not as a man parading around as a woman, um, as a man, when, when do you think as a man would be the best time to sleep with a woman?

[Speaker 1]
Do you mean for me as a man?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. You as a man, when, like, what do you, I mean, well, maybe that's an obvious question right away.

[Speaker 1]
Um, yeah, I mean with, with respect and consideration, but I'm very much of the opinion that, that authenticity and honesty rules. So if I'm attracted to a woman, I will usually try to kiss her on the first date. That doesn't mean that I get a kiss and often it's actually more helpful to get a rejection than a kiss, which we can go into why that is.

But, um, I don't want to leave a woman wondering or guessing, as I say, if I'm going to get rejected, I'd rather do it cleanly. And then she can reject me and that's fine. I'll, I'll move on.

Um, but, but sex is kind of similar. I feel the vibe and feel the energy and I'm happy to test sexual compatibility whenever the woman is comfortable to do so. I do think that's important.

I've had one partner who waited until exclusivity before sex. The others did not. So I've done both.

Um, and the risk, we can talk about this in a little bit, and I think there's a lot of benefits to waiting, but the biggest risk, uh, is probably the sexual compatibility side, which you could commit to someone, realize you don't have that. And maybe it's not even at a point where you could work on it. And that, that can be a little bit of a tricky thing later.

I think it's very different for women, but as a man, um, yeah, I mean, if I'm sexually attracted to someone, I will see if I can kiss her reasonably soon. And if she's okay, kissing me, I will sort of assume that she's okay with me going further until she shows or tells me that she's not, I know a woman's rarely going to initiate sex with me, even if she wants it. So if I'm getting subtle green lights, I will go for it.

If I'm getting maybes, I'll probably go for it and just be very aware of her signs. And if I'm getting obvious signs that she doesn't want it, then I will stop and wait however many hours or days or weeks or whatever, whatever it is feels right in my read of her. Does that make sense to you?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. This is super interesting to hear the man's perspective on this, because I know you coach women, so you probably have a different perspective coming, you know, from the women's side, but I think to hear it from the man's side is really, really eyeopening and important because what I'm picking up as a woman is we do, we want them to be initiating and advancing and invite like pulling that energy towards us.

Because if you weren't doing that, then we have to lean into that energy of initiating, which just throws off the whole balance of the whole relationship dynamic. But if you do know that, that that is their job, it is their job to initiate and test it and see where things go and how far they can go. It doesn't have to be something that's shady or overly sexualized, or, you know, they're so obnoxious or ridiculous or call whatever label you want.

It's just seeing it as the dance that it is, and that you also have a role in that dance, which is to know your own boundaries and know what feels right to you and play the dance as much as feels right to you every step of the way. So I think it's really, really beautiful what you were sharing there, because you're saying you don't want to leave. I love what you said.

I don't want to leave any them guessing or wondering on that first date. You know, if, if there's an attraction here, I want to show them very clearly there's an attraction here. And then it's up to you to decide, do I want to reciprocate that attraction or not?

Versus I think a lot of women are like, Oh, I don't want to sleep with him too soon. I don't want him to think he can get what he wants and blah, blah, blah. And they become so guarded against that, that men, if they don't initiate, then you're right.

It leaves this like weird gap of what is going on here? What are we exactly? Right?

So there is a little bit of a dance that I think has to be played and expecting it and planning for it will make it not be weird or awkward or annoying or obnoxious or whatever it seems to be. That's what I'm interpreting.

[Speaker 1]
Right. I love the saying men's job to initiate women's job to reject. And that dance is also how the woman feels safe.

Because, you know, if I try to, let's say I attracted to a woman, I like her on the first date and I decide, yep, I'm going to show her, I'm going to go for the kiss. She rejects me. I'm non-reactive about it.

I'm totally cool. I say, I enjoyed this. I'd love to see you again.

I know when I invite her out on a second date, she feels safe enough with me to either A, want to kiss me or B, is curious enough about me to maybe not want to kiss me yet, but she feels comfortable that her boundaries will be respected even if she doesn't want to kiss me, which is still a good sign. So it's kind of like a win-win. And if she clearly was perturbed or put off, she just won't come on the second date.

So it actually saves, it saves me a lot of time and gives me a lot of clarity on an early date. Let's say, as I say, try to kiss on the first date. Well, now I have good info for the second date.

Okay. She either wants me, might want me or definitely doesn't want me. There's no kind of gray in there.

And I love that clarity. And as I say, also creates more safety for a woman, in my opinion, because she has seen me reject her once. She's seen how her boundaries have been seen.

She felt that as she feels it a few more times, she's going to feel most likely safer with me. And yeah, it's, I think my personal experience as well is I have