#28 DEBATE: Is Men's Vulnerability UNATTRACTIVE To Women?

In this conversation, Mark Rosenfeld shares how it's going 'niching' down to find a specific target man in the thousands available on the oldschool website 'plenty of fish'. He then shares with Teal the greatest profile he's come across in 205 days dating online as a woman (it might be the greatest profile in online history) before him and Teal speak about the pro's and con's of men showing vulnerability around the women they find attractive. Jump in and join us!

Chapters
0:32 Recent Parenting Struggles Of Mark And Teal
1:10 How 'Niching' Is Going on... PLENTY OF FISH!
5:44 We Found The Greatest Profile In Online Dating History
13:32 Debate: Is Men's Vulnerability UNNATTRACTIVE To Women?
28:43 Want A Session With Us? Book via the description!

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 0:33 Recent Parenting Struggles Of Mark And Teal
• 1:10 How 'Niching' For A Man Is Going on... PLENTY OF FISH!?!
• 5:45 We Found The Greatest Profile In Online Dating History!
• 13:32 Debate: Is Men's Vulnerability UNNATTRACTIVE To Women?
• 28:43 Want A Session With Us? Book via the description!

Transcript

Mark Rosenfeld (00:02.049)
the best profile in online dating history and is men's vulnerability unattractive to women? We'll see you right after this.

Mark Rosenfeld (00:14.648)
do one more.

the best profile in online dating history and is men's vulnerability unattractive to women? We'll see you right after this.

go. Shall we dive in tail? tail.

Teal Elisabeth (00:28.918)
Okay, mm-hmm, let's do it. Okay. Hey, Mark, good to see you. I am hanging in there. I think we're both hanging in there.

Mark Rosenfeld (00:34.968)
How are you?

Mark Rosenfeld (00:38.83)
We've had sort of parenting struggles for slightly different reasons this week, haven't we? Mine's a, mine's a post gestational struggle and yours is a bit of a pre gestational struggle, isn't it?

Teal Elisabeth (00:44.689)
Yeah.

Parenting and having kids is not for the faint of heart. I'm just going say that, you know.

Mark Rosenfeld (00:55.186)
So Teal was saying before the show, guys, she said, you know what, Mark, you thought that stripping thing was real hard. That was until you got to parenting, wasn't it? And I went, yeah, that's, that's actually pretty accurate Teal. Good, good call there. Teal, I have something very exciting for you today. Actually, before I show you this, a quick update. So you might remember we're doing some niching now, which is niching down for the specific guys that we're wanting.

with specific traits that we're wanting. I'm testing this with a few clients. It's been quite fun so far. It's producing some interesting results. I'll more detailed results for you next week, but I will say, Teal, you and I are similar ages. Did you ever, when you were younger, use the website PlentyofFish? How old were you roughly when you used POF?

Teal Elisabeth (01:37.214)
I did? Yes. my god, that brings back memories. Is that one still even alive? I don't even know.

Mark Rosenfeld (01:44.27)
None of those are still alive to you. I'm there. I have gone there. I've been there the last two weeks. So I needed somewhere that was, a little just different. I needed something fresh. And I also wanted somewhere that allowed me to use a long bio because long bio sites, I wouldn't say they're dying out, but they're becoming more of a minority. We've got Tinder, we got Hinge, got Bumble, Coffee Meets Bagel. They're all very short bio websites. So

I'm like match.com which is along by a website. wanted to find a couple of others and I thought, you know what? Back in the day I had POF, plenty of fish, hows.

Teal Elisabeth (02:18.39)
I remember that. Was that a Christian site or was it a regular site? I don't remember. I do. Okay, okay.

Mark Rosenfeld (02:23.082)
It's a regular, it is a regular site. Yeah, it is a regular. I met a, a friend of mine on there decades ago. Anyway, I have been on plenty of fish and, it's been an experience, Teal. It has been an experience. the, the words hot mess come to mind. I think to describe it pretty accurately, it is just, it, first of all, it appears that they haven't updated the website.

Teal Elisabeth (02:41.349)
my gosh, okay, now you got me hooked.

Mark Rosenfeld (02:52.3)
since possibly the early nineties. Okay. Now I'm sure technically they have, but the functionality feels like the app is designed in the nineties. You can see the match group, match group, the way, match.com. They own just about everything. I don't know if you know that, but they own Tinder, they own Hinge, they own plenty of fish. They own almost everything. It seems like they bought plenty of fish and said, we'll just hang this one out to dry. I leave it here in 2008 and anyone who wants to hang out there can stay there.

Teal Elisabeth (03:20.266)
You

Mark Rosenfeld (03:21.118)
It's been a hot mess. We've seen some, some profiles that are very out there. and as, as always, the first week was very slow, but I have to say we've had a lot of phone calls this week too, as you know, our typical rate is about 12 a month. in this month being on Plenty of Fish so far, just as a rough number, we had in the first, in the first week, we had one, which is pretty typical. And then the second week, one, two, three, four, five, six,

and I'm expecting that that rate should more or less continue. So that's actually, what's that, seven from the first two weeks. But if you discount the first week, that puts us on pace to actually beat the other strategy. Now that's not telling the full story because this niching strategy searching for a particular man, it's filtering a different kind of guy. Instead of having more social conversations, we are having more in-depth relational conversations. So I would say,

as the strategy goes, it needs refinement. We are attracting people who are having deep relationship conversations. They're talking about values. They're talking about relationship coaching. They're answering well. They're putting in effort. I would say the backend stuff is really validated, but so far the front end stuff has not been as strong as in first look profiles. If we were to grade them from A to D, there's a lot of Cs coming through. So it, that's okay. We just, we only need one or two A's or B's to

for the strategy to work. But, but the backend stuff is cool because the quality of the guys, even if they're not necessarily the most attractive upfront guys, it's just been cool seeing, this strategy does actually really separate the low effort, Hey babes and the wanna cuddle on my couch guys. There's plenty of C's and D's there from the C's and D's who, or even the B's, A's as well, who want to put in effort and who are quality guys. So that's been a win. That's been a

Teal Elisabeth (05:14.582)
Yeah, I remember from my experience being on there, I remember meeting a lot of quality guys. Yeah, yeah. You had to filter through a lot of crap. yeah, I met a few. Yeah, one of them even broke my heart a little bit. Yeah. No.

Mark Rosenfeld (05:19.406)
On POF. Yeah, right.

Mark Rosenfeld (05:25.518)
You met a few. Oh, that's no good to hear. I gotta say, the technology is a hot mess. It is, is. There's errors, there's but it's hilarious. My clients think it's the funniest thing in the world, but we've had our adventures on POF and the peak of these adventures, which I've been very excited to tell you about Teal, is quite possibly the greatest profile I have ever come across.

in online dating history. It was day number 206, number I'll never forget now. And we came across his name, his username at least is Hermes265. Now, Teal, to really describe this profile, you have to see it. So you're going to have, I think what I'll do is I'll show you the photos and you can describe to the listeners what I'm showing you. Um, and there are, there are, there are a decent chunk of photos. There's actually 16 photos here. There's 16. So I'm going to flash through them kind of quick.

Teal Elisabeth (06:12.664)
perfect.

Mark Rosenfeld (06:21.944)
you know, one or two, you might go, what's going on here? But I think once you see all 16, you'll, you'll, you'll appreciate this. So Tia, I'm going to go ahead and share the screen here, with the first, with the first one.

Teal Elisabeth (06:32.95)
I'm like in anticipation. kind of nervous about what I'm about to read.

Mark Rosenfeld (06:35.318)
It's, it's pretty, it's pretty special. it's pretty special. That is if I can find the fricking picture window here. Hang on a minute. Why is it closed? All right. Give me a moment here, Teal. We are gonna, we're gonna get this guys. It's worth the wait. I promise you. Hermes265 is on his way to your inbox. Now I have blanked out the eyes Teal, so obviously keep in mind that, you know, you can't see his eyes. That was me putting that on there, not, not him. so I want you to go ahead and as we, as I share here, just, can you see the screen Teal if I expand it a bit?

might even zoom in a little. Can you, can you see the screen? All right. Do you want to just describe what you see one photo at a time?

Teal Elisabeth (07:07.146)
Yeah, let's zoom in a bit.

Teal Elisabeth (07:12.352)
dang, I see a very macho looking man leaning against a black Rolls Royce in a tuxedo looking real studly.

Mark Rosenfeld (07:21.566)
Yep, Nice photo number two. What do you say?

Teal Elisabeth (07:27.926)
boy, there's that raspy nasty cough. I see him walking a tiger on a chain. Is he smoking a cigar while he does it? I think so. my God. Stop. Okay, he's smoking cigars in all his photos. Okay, him in a hot tub overlooking a beach smoking a cigar, closer.

Mark Rosenfeld (07:40.489)
He's smoking a cigar, walking a tiger on a chair. This is photo number two. All right, photo number three. Here we are.

Teal Elisabeth (07:54.326)
closer shot, okay? Definitely has lots of tats. Definitely beefy looking guy, bald with a beard. my God. Now where in the world are you? You look like you're in Asia somewhere. Standing in the middle of a street with tuk tuks and motorbikes and chaos looking very cool. my God.

Mark Rosenfeld (07:56.078)
Got a shot of photo number four.

Mark Rosenfeld (08:13.174)
He's, he gets around, he gets around photo number five.

Teal Elisabeth (08:18.55)
He apparently is a lion tamer because he is holding on to this lion. Almost looks like he's about to do some nasty things to this lion. Yeah. Yeah, a legit lion. His posture is very weird. What? What?

Mark Rosenfeld (08:29.678)
An actual line guys, an actual line. Like a proper, proper line. Photo, photo six, here he is, another side of himself.

Teal Elisabeth (08:40.456)
Okay, this is just AI digitally done. It must be. Yes, that's what it is. It's AI done. Now he's apparently Islamic and completely in full garb with a headpiece and white tunic behind some sort of temple. What? What? my God. Now he seems to be in Thailand at a Buddhist monk temple.

Mark Rosenfeld (08:57.655)
He's got full Saudi prints. Next one. Where are we now? Where in the world are we?

Mark Rosenfeld (09:07.914)
Look at his hat! He's got the tie right hat!

Teal Elisabeth (09:11.51)
wearing this UFC shirt? What the heck? Are you serious?

Mark Rosenfeld (09:15.47)
This is a man. Here he is. It still gets better.

Teal Elisabeth (09:19.527)
my god! You guys, this is hilarious. Now here he is showing his soft side holding three very cute puppies that are little, looks like English Bulldogs that kind of remind me of him as a big English Bulldog. my god.

Mark Rosenfeld (09:35.95)
But he's wearing a shirt and a vest while he's holding them. We need to point that out. He's looking very professional with his three mastiffs in a vest. Here he is. Look, wearing the world as he now, Teal.

Teal Elisabeth (09:38.294)
Yes, very polished. you think they're mastiffs? Yeah. my God. Now you're just testing all my my worldly knowledge. Now he's in for the Colosseum. Yeah, just hanging out in Rome by himself. What? Where are you in some sort of temple? It looks like maybe Rome. could be the Basilica. I don't know.

Mark Rosenfeld (09:53.998)
Koolzakucumba at the Coliseum. where in the world are we now?

Mark Rosenfeld (10:05.546)
Yeah, he's in, could be in Vegas, he's at Rome there. Here we are, where are we now?

Teal Elisabeth (10:08.602)
my god. now he just looks like a bouncer at some very hot strip club with chain and champagne.

Mark Rosenfeld (10:18.816)
I think that could be, I could be wrong. think that could be the Bellagio in Vegas.

Teal Elisabeth (10:22.492)
I was gonna say he does, looks like some sort of nice theater.

Mark Rosenfeld (10:26.872)
He's got the gold chain necklace guys, the black suit all over, big gold watch. Here we go, what's next? What's next? There he is.

Teal Elisabeth (10:29.492)
Who is this guy? Who is-

Teal Elisabeth (10:38.486)
Him with his English bulldog, oh my god, who has an amazing resemblance to him, I will say. Dogs and their owners.

Mark Rosenfeld (10:45.74)
And the robe, he's like wearing this. Is that a towel or a robe? think it's a red, it's a towel robe. Okay. That's, that's thing. What's next? All right. Oy.

Teal Elisabeth (10:50.248)
It's a towel rope. That's what it looks like. What? Hot shot? No. Him in a limo just sprawled out. We got a good picture of his junk in the jeans in a limo looking way too cool for school. my God. I'm so turned off by this guy now. What?

Mark Rosenfeld (11:07.882)
Is is it, it the limo? Here we go, it still gets better.

Teal Elisabeth (11:14.422)
Now he's got some machete no machine gun and he's wearing some other towel robe it's a Versace towel robe. It's the same one from before Versace With his cigar in front of the limo with the machine gun smoking in the woods

Mark Rosenfeld (11:22.594)
Is that what it is? Oh is too! There you go!

In the woods! In the woods! The limo is not in front of our hotel, he's out in the woods somewhere with his cigar. this is just the gift that keeps on giving this profile. here he is, where is he now, Teal? He's headed to the snow!

Teal Elisabeth (11:38.742)
What?

Teal Elisabeth (11:46.806)
He is versatile, you know, he will take care of you no matter where you guys go. Yeah, I don't have any words.

Mark Rosenfeld (11:56.526)
is out and so, and I think this is the last one. Here he is at yet another, some sort of famous, what is that? The museum or he does not smile. He's a very serious man. And I believe I don't have this, I don't have this here. I believe he is in fact a Jujitsu black belt that was mentioned in his, in his bio. So just in case you were thinking of taking him on, you've also got that.

Teal Elisabeth (12:04.086)
And he's never smiling. He's always... He's way too cool to smile.

Teal Elisabeth (12:17.27)
That sounds about right. Yeah, he's a beefy man.

Mark Rosenfeld (12:21.836)
that to deal with. That truly was the profile they just kept on giving between the tigers, the lions, the bling, the dogs, the Bellagio, the Coliseum, the hat in Thailand, the Arabic wear, the bath in front of the beach. was, I just, you can't top that, can you, Tio? It just doesn't get any better.

Teal Elisabeth (12:30.454)
The machine.

Teal Elisabeth (12:38.088)
my god.

well i wanna know, is he actually, what is he doing on there? you know, he's not looking for his wife what is he doing? this just him getting to show off, he's like, i need an outlet to show off how cool i am, so

Mark Rosenfeld (12:46.956)
I I have no idea too.

I, you know what? He wins. He showed it. I thought, I was proven. I only had to see one big cat and the rest was gravy. I'm like, yeah, all right. You did it. Whatever impression you were trying to make, you made it. Yep. You're it. Good job. Good job. Teal, what a time.

Teal Elisabeth (12:57.558)
I'm gonna do a slow clap. Slow clap.

yeah, you made it. Yeah, yeah. Wow, okay, so if you could sum up him in one word, what word would that be? Yes, yes. Not, be real, I wanna bring home the mom and dad, maybe some girls get off on that.

Mark Rosenfeld (13:18.146)
Godfather.

Mark Rosenfeld (13:24.822)
That's him.

I

Well, that's actually a great segue to very smoothly done there in terms of what do girls get off on? More specifically, we're talking, let's talk about male vomens vulnerability. Now, Brene Brown brought this topic up 10, 15 years ago and did some amazing research into it. The power of vulnerability, the way vulnerability connects us in relationships, the way opening up and becoming vulnerable allows for that human to human connection and the bond to form.

Teal Elisabeth (13:35.127)
Hahaha.

Yeah.

Mark Rosenfeld (13:59.904)
So I'm really curious about your opinion on this. And, and I, I want to focus the question specifically on this idea of attractiveness because I think we're, we're obviously going to say vulnerability connects and vulnerability is good for the heart and going to therapy or being vulnerable with, your buddy is a good thing. but in terms of attractiveness, I want to say attractiveness, it's like that, that magnetism, maybe even take clothes off, sexual attraction, sensual attraction, that type of thing.

What's your opinion on this? Is male vulnerability attractive or unattractive to women?

Teal Elisabeth (14:30.902)
You

Teal Elisabeth (14:36.694)
Mmm, great, great question. I think, like with most things, it's not black and white. I don't think it either is or isn't. I think it depends on the context. And I'm actually supporting a client through this right now because in one way, her new man that she's with is being very vulnerable in lots of wonderful ways and showing her how much he cares and really being emotionally open and sharing his feelings with her about how he cares about her.

Mark Rosenfeld (15:02.126)
Mm-hmm.

Teal Elisabeth (15:05.066)
but he's also being very vulnerable about navigating stuff with his ex wife and the divorce stuff they're going through and kind of pulling him into pulling her into a situation she doesn't really want to be involved in. So I think it really depends on the context of what you're being vulnerable about. And I think if it's vulnerability that's specific to you and helping your relationship deepen in terms of how we feel about each other or insecurities we have our feelings we have about the future and our life and

and that sort of stuff, think it's a very bonding thing. I think it can be very unattractive when we start either dumping our feelings about other things or dragging people into drama that is not really intended for us, then it can kind of be more off-putting. That would be my take on it.

Mark Rosenfeld (15:52.716)
is, okay, I'm curious about, I guess we should talk a little bit about definition as well. So if someone is, if someone is sharing, Hey, I'm going through a divorce. You know, I'm, I'm doing it really tough right now. I guess I'm curious, is that, where is the line? Because there's

there's vulnerability, which is kind of what I want to talk about. And then there's unhealthy dumping, which, which I think we can agree is, is, is not appropriate. You know, help me get through my divorce with my wife. I'm not so much talking about unhealthy, unhealthy dumping. I'm not sure which that was that you were referring to. I'm talking, let's say the guy says, you know, I am really struggling to process the divorce with my wife. I'm feeling very

sad and confused much of the time about my relationship with my brother. That sort of don't, it's not the fix it for me, which I think is an obvious boundary overstep. It's the, Hey, I'm in some sort of guilt, shame, weakness, fear, basically a insecurity, a vulnerable emotional state, and I'm sharing with you as a woman. Is that what your client's been experiencing or is she getting, doing more of the dumping thing?

Teal Elisabeth (17:08.315)
Now it was more the dumping. Yeah.

Mark Rosenfeld (17:10.35)
all the dumping things. So what do you, what do you feel about what I was just talking about where someone's saying, I'm just feeling really sad about this. I'm feeling really scared about this. I'm a man saying these things. I'm feeling really nervous about my work and I can't fall asleep every night because I'm feeling very anxious about it. Is that unattractive?

Teal Elisabeth (17:29.398)
I love that. I love that question. I would be curious at how, like how our listeners feel about that. But for me in my take on it, I think it's the most beautiful, attractive thing a man could demonstrate. To me, it's showing that he's feels very safe to open up his heart to you and he's leaning on you in a, in a way not of dumping it on you, but leaning on you as in I want to bring you in deeper into my heart space. And to me that makes me go,

Mark Rosenfeld (17:42.189)
Interesting.

Teal Elisabeth (17:57.502)
my gosh. Yes. Like let's, let's just dive into that. The yumminess, the juiciness, even if the conversation is not a very comfortable conversation, it's him saying, I trust you enough to want to let you in. And that to me is very attractive. And I feel that the heart really warms up in those kinds of conversations, even if it's something really, really difficult, even if it's processing a death or something really, really painful, it can actually warm the hearts of both people and bring you guys closer together.

Mark Rosenfeld (18:19.053)
Ahem.

Mark Rosenfeld (18:28.514)
Gotcha. Okay.

Teal Elisabeth (18:29.206)
But you're saying like, do I want to then jump his bones after he said that kind of stuff?

Mark Rosenfeld (18:31.95)
That was one of my next two questions. Yeah. So, okay. Cause there's, there's attraction and then there's, you know, connected and intimate and safe, emotionally intimate and safe. Yeah. Let's, let's start there. Okay. All that is fine. Do you want to rip his clothes off?

Teal Elisabeth (18:40.618)
to the field.

Teal Elisabeth (18:49.446)
No, probably not. But I think there's a time and a place, right? I don't think, yeah, I mean, that's, I just feel like that's kind of, I don't think, yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think that there's just a time and a place for, for desire and lust and passion. And that that doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with deep heartfelt emotional vulnerability. Vulnerability does not equal passion and lust. They're two different worlds.

Mark Rosenfeld (18:58.358)
It's interesting, right? It's an interesting question.

Mark Rosenfeld (19:12.32)
Yeah. I-

Mark Rosenfeld (19:17.63)
I agree. And I think that when we are, when we as men are sharing, I do think in a lot of cases, men are aware of this, that these two things, as you sort of alluded to there can come in, different packages because tell me, I'm really curious. When I asked you that question then, did you picture it in relation to Spencer?

Did you picture, I said, do you, are you attracted to vulnerability was when you, when you asked yourself the question, were you asking a relation to Spencer?

Teal Elisabeth (19:53.838)
No, Spencer's mind didn't, Spencer didn't come to my mind. I was actually just imagining just some random man coming to me. It's weird. Yeah.

Mark Rosenfeld (20:00.896)
Interesting. Okay. You were using like a silhouette guy. Interesting. Because tell me, tell me if you agree with this theory, Teal. I think I hear women answer yes to this question that the vulnerability is attractive. And it's interesting that you, you actually kind of said, well, sexually, maybe not so much, but, but emotionally, I can really connect with it. What my experience has been is, is more often, tell me if you disagree, when, when women answer that question, they're often thinking of a man that they already find

attractive or masculine in some way. So for example, I say, Hey, do you find vulnerability attractive? Often you might think of a partner or someone you've been with. You might think of a famous celebrity. You know, you'd imagine Travis Kelsey or a footballer being vulnerable on a podcast. And, and so we typically picture someone, you obviously didn't. So maybe this theory holds no water. But what I've asked them in this question, it seems like they often

Teal Elisabeth (20:54.358)
Thank

Mark Rosenfeld (20:56.238)
When I've asked them in this question, it seems like they often will picture someone that's already attractive in their eyes. And then they'll say, yeah, that'd be great if he was vulnerable. That would, that would add that next level of attraction for me. But I'm curious, does that attraction as in the masculine strong side need to be there first for you to find the vulnerability attractive? Does he already need to kind of establish himself as a quote unquote masculine

strong man before vulnerability becomes attractive? Or can vulnerability be attractive right at the start?

Teal Elisabeth (21:29.824)
Hmm. I think they're two different camps. Yeah. I think when we are in lust mode and passion mode and wanting to dive into that physical attraction, we're not quite as, you know, obviously the heart is connected in that place, but it's much more of a physical yearning and craving and desire. Whereas I, which can be ignited through emotion, but I think more times than not, it's, it's much more surface level than that. And so,

I think, yeah, if we're just talking about, as I was just trying to take this as I meet a man on the street, you know, we become friends, he starts diving into all of his vulnerable stuff with me. Does that make me want to then just jump into bed with him? Maybe because I care about him and my heart's now warmed up to him, but it's not like, ooh, you're so sexy. It's more just like, I'm sorry for you. It's pity. It's pity sex.

Mark Rosenfeld (22:23.694)
was going to say, it, is, is that something you did previously too? It's like, Oh, I feel really sorry for him. I'll give him some sorry sex here. I'm really connected to him. He's kind of cute. All right. There's some sorry sex. mean, I don't, I don't see women do that a lot.

Teal Elisabeth (22:28.84)
No. No.

No, but I think that's where it would stem from. It would be more compassionate than it would be.

Mark Rosenfeld (22:47.05)
Sounds like you're doing him a favor. All right, here's something to you feel better.

Teal Elisabeth (22:49.654)
I mean, what do you think? Do you find vulnerability attractive? Does it make you want to jump into less lustful bed with someone if she opens up her heart?

Mark Rosenfeld (23:01.676)
Ooh, I hadn't actually asked myself the question in reverse. I do think the question is not quite the same, masculine, feminine as in reverse. I think when I see vulnerability, yeah, my heart really opens up to it. I want to hug her. I want to hold her. I want to take care of her and sort of like take over, hold her safe. And I think that dynamic, I think it's an easier dynamic to lead to sexual chemistry because she relaxes, she feels protected. She lets herself go, which often leads to...

Teal Elisabeth (23:09.096)
Yeah. Yeah.

Teal Elisabeth (23:17.608)
in compassion, empathy.

Mark Rosenfeld (23:31.71)
her feeling more relaxed sexually and et cetera. So I think it's easier for it to flow that way. If Sam's crying, I'm not thinking, that's, that's really hard. Like I'm not going there, but I do think it invokes a little bit more of a typical polarity, a typical protective masculine polarity, which then has a much easier transition into a potential sexual polarity. I think the other way it's harder. I think as, and this is where men

have this interesting thing to negotiate. And I've struggled with this many times in my life is, okay, as you sort of alluded to, and I think as, as most men know, vulnerability is not the thing that makes women want to rip their clothes off. And while compassion can be created for sure, typically that doesn't lead to sex, which let's be honest is at the forefront of a guy's minds. So men have this balance. There's always this

thing I think for a lot of men, which is how kind of vulnerable can I be before I enter the land of, okay, she no longer, you know, wants, wants to jump me. Now, if you're doing okay in life and you're just having vulnerable days, you don't really need to worry about this stuff. But for a man who is really struggling, maybe he's struggling with some depression. Maybe this actually came from a Reddit thread, which I read. I got, I was reading through men's stories in a Reddit thread and this guy was saying, you know,

after eight years, I finally had the courage to open up to my partner and share my emotions. And she said that was so, what'd she say? That was so unattractive or that gave me the ick. think it was that gave me the ick and she doesn't want to be with me anymore. And I thought, wow, like men do in many cases have to, have to sort of tread this line a little bit. And I think not go too far into vulnerability because if there's too much of that, compassion, but she doesn't want to take her clothes off anymore, that's obviously not going to feel good for a man.

Teal Elisabeth (25:11.229)
are

Teal Elisabeth (25:25.92)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mark Rosenfeld (25:26.094)
for a woman who doesn't want him. So the woman kind of needs to feel safe and she needs to feel that he has some strength for him to be able to do that. And I think, I just thought this was an interesting topic to you because it's it's a fascinating challenge for men is, okay, am I, am I allowed to show that weakness and can the woman hold space for that?

Teal Elisabeth (25:35.89)
you

Teal Elisabeth (25:44.886)
Well, let's not say weakness. It's not a weakness, right?

Mark Rosenfeld (25:49.334)
Yeah, it's, it's courage. It's, it's vulnerability. Yeah. It's, it's courageous. In a sense, it is, I guess I would say in a sense, it is a weakness, but that's not like a bad thing. If you're saying, Hey, I have this weakness here. It's still a weakness. It's like, let's say my arm is weak. Hey, I have this weakness here, but I'm courageous in that I'm showing it. So it can, it can be courageous to show a weakness, I think is the way I would phrase it. but if I show too much weakness,

or if I show a particular woman too many quote unquote weak sides of me where let's say I've been depressed for three months. Does she want to know that? It's a tricky balance for men. And I think that's why as you're alluding to it's yeah, we have kind of a line to walk with the women we love. Would you agree? mean, tell me if you disagree.

Teal Elisabeth (26:32.466)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I do agree. And I also think it depends on the timeline of their relationship too. You know, I think men do need to put a little bit more of that bravado up front while still showing they have the emotional maturity to go there if it needs to be, but they're not gonna be offloading or using their woman to process through all their feelings in the early stages, you know, still leaning on some outside support for that.

And then I think building that trust over time, you guys can develop into that more and more. And then that heart bond strengthens, but at least you have that already, attractiveness established from the early days when you were still the strong, attractive, sexy hunk.

Mark Rosenfeld (27:14.262)
Right. So that sort of points, points the same thing, which is especially in the early days, in some ways, vulnerability can work against men, which is sad to say, but I think it's true is if you're too vulnerable upfront, she's not going to have that attraction that's going to make her want to get to a 10th date with you. I understand it's ladies, mostly you listening to the podcast. the two or three men that listening to this like, he's talking to me for a change. but I think just, just for the ladies,

Teal Elisabeth (27:38.656)
Yeah.

Mark Rosenfeld (27:42.828)
making sure that you're not like, like that Reddit woman, which is where, Hey, you're comfortable enough with your own vulnerability that allowing space for your partner to go there, not so that he can get on a victim treadmill and just stay there, you know, wallowing, but giving him the space to occasionally go there and feel like he can share that with you without you going, Ooh, you gave me the ick now. It's important for you to be comfortable with those emotions within yourself.

because if it's giving you the eek, if he's vulnerable even once with you, I would say to you, tell me if you disagree, that's more of a reflection on you than a reflection.

Teal Elisabeth (28:19.478)
Yeah, absolutely. I would say as a main takeaway, we do not want to be discouraging men's vulnerability at all. If you have a man that's showing vulnerability, think that is a thing to be celebrated and applauded. But does it weaken our attractiveness to them in the beginning? Maybe if it's done too much. Yeah, I just think it needs to be done too much too soon. Yeah.

Mark Rosenfeld (28:37.806)
There is such a thing as too much too soon. Yeah. I love that. I love that, Teal. Well guys, thank you for joining us today. Teal, that was a great discussion. If you want a session with Teal, you can book it via the link in the description. Same with me as well. And please don't forget if you're enjoying the podcast, give us a five star rating on the podcasting platform and that way we can get more episodes to you. We've got some big stuff next week. For the meantime, Teal, thanks for joining me.

Teal Elisabeth (29:03.414)
See you soon Mark, bye guys.

Mark Rosenfeld (29:05.112)
See you soon, guys.