#29 DEBATE: How To Get Your Needs Met WITHOUT Being Needy!

In this conversation Mark Rosenfeld And Teal Elisabeth DEBATE How To Get Your Needs Met WITHOUT Being Needy! It turns out there are some things Mark and Teal DON'T agree on and this was certainly one of them! Mark and Teal also describe the difference between NEEDS and WANTS and how to define which is which, and Mark shares an update on how his incredibly tough filtering strategy is going in finding a specific 'niche' of compatible man online. Share in the comments who you resonate with most in this episode!

Chapters

0:00 Introduction

0:32 A Health Update From Mark!

2:35 A Pregnancy Update From Teal!

3:12 Result Of NICHING For A Man Online

11:26 Mark And Teal DEBATE: How To Get Your Needs Met WITHOUT Being Needy!

34:27 The Difference Between NEEDS And WANTS

42:40 Want A Session With Us? Book via the description!

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 0:32 A Health Update From Mark!
• 2:36 A Pregnancy Update From Teal!
• 3:12 Result Of NICHING For A Man Online
• 11:26 DEBATE: How To Get Your Needs Met WITHOUT Being Needy!
• 34:27 The Difference Between NEEDS And WANTS
• 42:40 Want A Session With Us? Book via the description!

Transcript

Mark Rosenfeld (00:15.49)
The results of niching for a specific man online and how to stop being needy and get your needs met. We'll see you right after this.

Mark Rosenfeld (00:32.696)
Teal, we're both recovering by the look of it. I'm, I'm a little better. I have some use of my diaphragm back, which is great. I feel like I can talk to you a little bit more. I've got some, I was talking a lot yesterday and I was sore. I was sore by the end of the day, but I've realized Teal, there's levels of soreness now. There's soreness three weeks after surgery and you know, spend the day talking. There's the soreness.

Teal Elisabeth (00:33.755)
Hey Mark, how are you doing this week?

Mark Rosenfeld (01:01.61)
one week after surgery, there's the soreness one day after surgery, and then there's the soreness before you even had the surgery. So on the grand scale, things are, things are looking bright if we, if we take it all in consideration. Yeah, no, I'm feeling good. Sam's been very supportive. I'm still not allowed to pick up Laney. She's almost 20 pounds now, my little beautiful daughter. So yeah, she's growing, but I'm not allowed to handle her because of incision risks and stuff for at least another few weeks.

Teal Elisabeth (01:10.471)
Aww.

Teal Elisabeth (01:18.938)
my gosh.

Mark Rosenfeld (01:27.874)
But other than that, I'm, I'm recovering. I'm enjoying my new kind of healthy diet. That's going to go well. I'm excited once I'm allowed to get back in the gym and kind of, I have lost about, Teal is a sad, it's about 25 pounds of muscle. Yeah. Makes, breaks my heart a little bit Teal. I'm not going to lie.

Teal Elisabeth (01:42.417)
Really? I was noticing. I was noticing he looks a little more thin, but I just figured, yeah, I mean, that's kind of part of his whole thing. Well, I mean, if you have it, I mean, they starved you for a week in the hospital.

Mark Rosenfeld (01:50.126)
You didn't want to say it because you knew it would have hurt me

Mark Rosenfeld (01:57.806)
I didn't even have eight days. That's true. I wasn't even hungry. Um, but no, it's true. I, yeah. So I'm down to about 25. So I think I'm going to have a little bit of a before and after fitness project once this is all over Teal and take my photos and do the whole transformation thing. Cause I've always wanted to do that, but I've kind of always gone to the gym reasonably consistently. So I've never had that, you I've never, Oh, I'm in really bad shape now. So I should take my before photos, but this is like, Oh, I'm going to be starting.

Teal Elisabeth (02:10.215)
Mark Rosenfeld (02:25.738)
from scratch here. No muscle. I'm very weak. At least I feel very weak and yeah, so I'm going to do that. So that maybe that'll be a little thing in the future that I'll keep you up to date on. How are you? You're looking very bright today. Are you well?

Teal Elisabeth (02:35.499)
Yeah, well, adjusted. Thank you. I am feeling so much better. Yes, it's just, it feels like I'm coming back to myself again, even though.

Mark Rosenfeld (02:46.958)
You're coming back to yourself right before you add to your family in a few weeks time.

Teal Elisabeth (02:50.735)
Right before I give birth, I know, but no, it feels really good. It's the power of rest. It's underrated. It is so underrated, but it is just a good reminder to all of us just how important rest is. It really works magic.

Mark Rosenfeld (03:03.148)
Yes. You and I have both been slowing down the past couple of weeks and we're both a lot better for it. lesson, yeah. So lesson for all our clients there that we need to take as well.

Teal Elisabeth (03:09.871)
Lesson learned. Yeah. But I'm actually really excited to hear about your results. I know you've been doing a lot behind the scenes. I was a little concerned. I was like, wow, are you niching in too much? I remember from the last few episodes, you're like, I'm going to cut out this. I'm going to cut out that. They need to want to get married in the next year. They want to have kids. I was like, OK, this is going be interesting.

Mark Rosenfeld (03:15.97)
The niching.

Mark Rosenfeld (03:29.342)
Yeah, we niched pretty hard and I'm still niching on a new website now, so I'll tell you about that in a second, but the niching was cut off at day 17 or 19. We sort of did a day when I went to surgery. So that was about where things, things stopped. So I only have essentially 17 days of data and keep in mind, and this has been a consistent trend throughout the year that

The first five to seven days don't really produce any results, especially the first five days. Nothing really happens in those five days. It's a little bit like, I suppose it's a little bit like going on a diet where the diet takes a bit longer, but those first few days, nothing changes. You're doing all the work and then nothing has changed yet. Overall, here's, here's kind of the numbers based results. So from the 17 days we got, let me open up my trusty notes here. We got,

We actually got quite a lot. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine dates. and we would have got two more except for the guys were basically saying, Hey, I just want to make sure that you're a real person. Are you okay to send me a verified selfie? And I did not have Sam available at the time to do that. So we dropped two dates, which we would have had if we were a real person. So it was essentially, 11.

was that 11, 12, 34, 5678, 11 dates. Yeah. 11 and 17 days, which is a lot. Now here's what I will say though. This was, and for those listening who might not know what we've been doing by niching or who maybe missed the previous episode, as Tia was alluding to, we basically set up a profile which says,

essentially here's what I'm looking for. We want to be married within the next 12 months and I believe starting a family as well. We're getting starting a family next, I think it was starting a family the next 12 months. was. Um, I want to transition to being a stay at home mom when that happens and I'm looking at what was, Oh, there was a third big one. I'm looking for someone. Oh my gosh. I have a relationship coach. That was the third one. So just don't judge me that was not quite as big as the other two, but don't judge me for having a relationship coach. Um, so

Teal Elisabeth (05:28.293)
Is it into, I have a relationship coach.

Mark Rosenfeld (05:38.338)
We got 11 dates. Again, only nine happened because of the selfie verification thing that I couldn't do, but essentially 11 dates. So that's pretty incredible because really we had 17 days, but as I said, only 12 of those were, were productive. Now here's, here's the caveat. The numbers sound really, really good. The big caveat is I wasn't filtering a ton.

after. I just wanted to see which guys I could get through. So if we were to grade the guys from A, B, C or D, like A is like, wow, it's a stunning guy. B is like, that's pretty attractive guy. Seems pretty good. C is not really, not horrible. Probably a good person, but not great. And D is like, my God, that is like horrible. Either very unattractive, ugly, what dare I say, or, know, just awful profile. we were allowing through the A's, the B's and the C's.

So I often have a saying that the magic happens with the B's and the C's, but the C's are, there's also a big difference between a C plus and a C minus. And I was having fun with my clients deciding what was what. So anyway, yes, we had 11 dates. The good side, lots of dates, really lots. And the ones that were coming through, they were answering the questions. So basically the way we did it, they had to meet the things we just said, those things, and then they had to answer a question about their health.

as in what fitness regime, health and fitness regime they did. And then they had to answer a question about whether or not they loved their work. Basically, how much do you love your work on a scale of one to 10? So they answered two more compatibility questions in the chat, and then they exchanged the phone number. So these guys had gone through the wringer basically, and they still wanted a date. So that's the good news is in terms of like relationship skills, in terms of the effort they put in, the conversational quality, it was really high.

In terms of the attractiveness we had of those 11, there were one, two, three, there was one A, three Bs and the rest were Cs. So in terms of attractiveness, it was weighted towards the Cs. But if you don't count the Cs, that still gives us four dates in 11 or 12 days, not counting the first five with Bs or an A.

Mark Rosenfeld (07:49.358)
And that, even without the C's, if we say 4 days and 17 days, given how filtered they were, I think pretty good.

Teal Elisabeth (07:59.575)
I will say that is really good. Yeah.

Mark Rosenfeld (08:01.71)
I didn't even mention this. Sorry, were you about to say something? I interrupted you. I didn't mention this. This was on, oh my God, this was, I cannot believe this. This was on plenty of fish. Keep in mind. So this website looks like it was built in 1995 and hasn't been updated since and it acts like it. I got so many webpage errors, messages not sent. It became a running joke in my client community how bad the technology was. But despite that,

Teal Elisabeth (08:05.391)
No, would just say very impressive.

Teal Elisabeth (08:13.427)
good old bloody fish, yes.

Teal Elisabeth (08:27.546)
I'm

Mark Rosenfeld (08:29.902)
And despite the fact there was plenty of fish and if online dating messy is messy, plenty of fish is like a bloody hoarder's house or something. It is the next level of mess. But despite that, we did filter through four decent, decent dates. And I would say each day we were reading probably between 12 and 15 messages to do this. So if you do the math, 12 to 15 per day times about

17 days, we probably filtered about 250 guys to get those for. So those were just, those were just people who were messaging us. Anyway, I think all of that said, I think it went quite well. So four dates, I was happy with that. We're going to move it over to one more website, which is not a typically used website. And then we're going mainstream to see if it works mainstream. I really just wanted to see if it could work in theory and I'm going to test on my website. That website is okay, Cupid.

if you've ever had the pleasure of using OKCupid, is a, it is a very open-minded website. You can sort of tell it's a very politically left leaning website. There's lots of, I'm pro choice. I'm very open. There's lots of that open minded language on there. Nothing wrong with that. Love that for some people, but it does steer that way. So I'm testing it on there. We're going to see what the response rate is, how many A's, B's, and D's we get. And then from there, we'll hit up Bumble and Hinge and see if we can

perhaps even equal or beat the numbers with a very niche strategy compared to what we were doing, which was more of a, Hey, let's meet people and be open minded strategy. yeah, I'm excited. I think it's cool. I think it's, I think it might have some meat to it. So that's where we're at.

Teal Elisabeth (10:03.847)
Very cool. You have so many creative ideas for testing all these different realms of dating, right? That's what makes the whole Tinder project such a cool podcast to be a part of because we get to learn through this whole experience that you get to go on.

Mark Rosenfeld (10:14.186)
I know!

Mark Rosenfeld (10:21.998)
And this is very different. You know, this this niching strategy is definitely the biggest change we've made. Even just the questions we've gone from a much more, I guess you'd call it classically feminine energy strategy where we're letting the guy lead the conversation and ask the questions first. This is like, we match. You're out if you don't answer the question or don't fit the compatibilities. And then even if you make it through those filters,

You have to answer two, you don't have to, but you're asked to answer two compatibility questions about your health and your work. And obviously you can change those. It doesn't have to be about health and work with those are the two we're using. And then if you make it through those two, then you get our phone number and you get to call us. So it's, it's sort of this intricate mix. Instead of going full leaning back feminine energy, it's like we're coming forward with the questions and the compatibility, but still leaning back and letting the guy make the move and organize the date and move things forward. So it's, it's a good mix and I'm excited to see if yeah, how it goes.

I think some of my professional clients might really like it because it feels very, it's a little bit more possibly time efficient. Whether that's a good thing or a thing in the long run is yet to be determined.

Teal Elisabeth (11:20.091)
Yeah

Well, I think that that's a really good segue into our conversation this week about your needs and how do we communicate our needs without being needy? But I think also what we were talking about before this is also how do we make sure we're not swinging the other way and just kind of coming at it too strong and being like these are all my needs you better stand up to it you better show me you can hit it otherwise it's not even a chance because I think both both

Mark Rosenfeld (11:32.555)
Yes!

Mark Rosenfeld (11:52.044)
right.

Teal Elisabeth (11:53.691)
directions actually can blow up in your face. Would you agree?

Mark Rosenfeld (11:57.44)
I agree. And I'm really curious to get your, your mindset on this because we all have, you and I both have clients that have gone in both directions. They, they put their needs aside and then maybe it swings the other way for a little bit and they get really empowered. These are all my needs. You know, I was talking to a guy and he said, actually this was, I wasn't, this was through a client of mine. She met this guy and she said she was talking to him and she kind of passed it on. He said, he said, tell your coach this.

and my client who's now in a relationship with him, he was telling her that the women he had been meeting before her, some of them were showing up. He had this happen many times where they show up with a list and like, here's all my needs. Can you meet them or not? And we're talking first, second date, like a literal list. I mean, it's California, so sometimes these things happen down there, but a literal list, like here's my needs. And my client,

Teal Elisabeth (12:35.399)
Oh, jeez. Oh, my God.

Mark Rosenfeld (12:47.65)
didn't do that. She showed up, she knows what her needs are, but she showed up with feminine energy. She showed up with her spirit, with her open heart and essentially won him over with that and her needs are being met, but she didn't have to write a Blumen list of them and give it to him in advance. So yeah, I've seen it go both ways. I'm really curious. How do you, what's your thoughts on this? How do you think about neediness versus having healthy needs, not pushing it too far? Let's start with general advice. What's your general thoughts on this?

Teal Elisabeth (13:10.055)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I just want to like my heart goes out to all the ladies out there who are trying to navigate this world of needs because let's face it, we're not modeled this. Most of the time our families are not showing us how to do this in a healthy way. Relationships out there, know, society, movies, all that stuff. It's just not, there's no real good healthy model for that.

So it can feel very tricky. And so it's very natural to either be like, okay, I don't want to be too needy. So let me push them down or let me communicate them. Everyone tells me communicate your needs. Let me communicate them. And then we scare them away. So there is a fine balance and it does take some skill to figure out how to do that. I think the biggest thing when it comes to neediness is neediness is when we are not feeling whole and complete in ourself. That's the best way I can internalize it.

and articulate it when we feel like we are feeling needy is because we don't feel like we can fully support our own self and we're looking outside of ourself to complete us and make us feel good and validated and supported and safe within us. And so we'll look to people and say, I need you to do this. I need, I need to hear from you X amount of times a week. I need you to be showing me and telling me all these things because deep down I don't feel fully secure in myself. So,

when we are thinking about needs, needs are important, but it has to be done from the right energetic set point first, which always comes back down to the self love piece first, right? How do you feel on your own when you don't have a partner around? Do you feel like you can be whole and complete in yourself without having anybody fulfill any needs for you? But then that also can be

Teal Elisabeth (15:02.657)
tricky point because you're like, yes, I feel secure in myself, but when I get into a relationship, how do I navigate that? I want to make sure that they're respecting me. I want to make sure that I'm not just taking breadcrumbs, right? So that's why we sometimes swing too far and come up with the list and show it to them and say, here's all my needs. So then the next part of it is going, okay, how do I know what my needs are? Articulate that list for myself so that I know what these things are that make me feel

Secure inside of a relationship container, right? We've already created the safety in your own self container but now it's a relationship container and using those needs instead of Projecting that out onto a man that he has to kind of mold and contortion to fit all of your requirements Instead almost making it a place of what are your non-negotiables that allow you to just be able to show up in your authentic strength so when I'm saying that it

it comes through kind of like you were saying with your client. She didn't come out and say all the needs, but they were internalized within herself that made her feel very grounded and very strong in who she was. And she was able to show up with that energy of feeling safe and secure in herself. And then she can just kind of gut check as he comes forward and decide, is he able to match what makes me feel safe? And I think that's kind of the difference between the neediness versus the

having needs and how we actually hold them and use them. Does that make sense?

Mark Rosenfeld (16:34.41)
Interesting. Okay. There's parts of you, parts of what you said that I really agree with and parts that I disagree.

Teal Elisabeth (16:40.325)
Mmm cool, let's hear your your thought for a moment.

Mark Rosenfeld (16:42.37)
Do you, here's a question I have for you on that. Should a human being be able to feel whole and full and secure within themselves if they don't have any form of connection in your opinion?

Teal Elisabeth (17:01.339)
whole and complete and full within themselves without any human connection.

Mark Rosenfeld (17:05.815)
Yeah.

Teal Elisabeth (17:07.815)
Are you talking about relationship connection or just any like they're out on an island?

Mark Rosenfeld (17:11.246)
I was more thinking any. I was more thinking any, like Ireland.

Teal Elisabeth (17:16.037)
Yes, I think so. mean, I humans are naturally relational beings. We need connection to feel like our happiest self. I do agree on that for sure. I don't think humans want to be in a vacuum, but there's a difference between looking to humans to make us feel complete versus being complete in the presence of humans.

Mark Rosenfeld (17:26.787)
Yeah.

Mark Rosenfeld (17:41.792)
Yeah, that's interesting. I don't know how I feel about that because I

Teal Elisabeth (17:44.775)
Mmm.

What's your take on it? Let's hear about your ideas of neediness versus having needs.

Mark Rosenfeld (17:53.544)
I'm, the more I do this work, I don't really believe human beings are designed to feel good in a vacuum on an island as you would put it.

I think we have, let's say we don't have an intimate partner. I think we certainly have the ability to fill our buckets, so to speak, from other connections. Let's call it friends or family or the people you help at the homeless shelter down the road. We certainly can have multiple taps feeding the bucket, but I don't think there's any biological or sort of emotional precedent for us to be able to feel good just on our own in a vacuum. Or if we do, it takes a lot of, a lot

lot of work and a lot of, that just feels like independence culture to me. Like, like if I was to say, for example, I need Sam to feel good, as in that she's one of the people that meets my needs. And if she and my family were to leave my life, I could just feel good without them. I wouldn't agree with that. I would say that's independence culture. And it's this idea that, I, I, I want someone, but I don't need them.

I love saying that as I used to, but really I don't, I don't think it's true because for me to say I want, I want people but don't need them. just, human beings are too relational. I think we do need validation from others. I think we do need,

love connection, affection, whatever the emotion is. We do need that sense of, have people around and while yes, we can survive without it and we can eat and we have money. So technically we can continue existing on the planet without those things. I don't

Mark Rosenfeld (19:40.684)
But I really don't believe human beings can thrive without the connection valuation. In other words, I don't think we can feel 100 % without other human beings filling our buckets.

Teal Elisabeth (19:50.811)
Hmm. See, I think that's a dangerous place to live. Because if that's your mentality, then you are always outsourcing some of your happiness to other people. And that can feel very unsafe. To me, this is about building a deeper connection with our own relationship to self.

Mark Rosenfeld (19:55.53)
Why is that? Let's go into this. I want to know.

Mark Rosenfeld (20:14.254)
I would say it's only unsafe if the other people cannot be trusted to show up.

Teal Elisabeth (20:21.788)
Yeah.

But it's still outsourcing to someone else that yes, you may trust them, but everybody has their own ways of being and their own agendas and their own life paths. And, then there's an uncircumstance things that happen that we don't want to think about, you know? So I agree with what you're saying a hundred percent. Like life is richer with human connection. Life is, allows us to love and express our love in a deeper, richer way when we have something to reciprocate that. but to me, it's actually,

about deepening a connection with a higher power, a higher faith, a depth within our soul that brings us that feeling of full connection and oneness outside of looking for that from external sources. And that's a very Buddhist approach too, I think, that I'm bringing.

Mark Rosenfeld (21:09.416)
Yeah, that is a very and I like Buddhism. I really enjoyed his, you asked the question what's needs versus neediness. I take a little bit of a different approach to this. I actually think it's in the eyes of the receiver because let's be honest, we've all, none of us like being needy. We get this question a lot, you and I, how do I not be needy? And the reason we ask that question is because usually we felt needy in the past to someone we love.

we have had some sort of thing that we wanted from someone and then put it out there and got this look or this hesitancy or this kind of pause from the other person, or maybe they even told us we were needy and we were too much. So in my experience, neediness does not come from the needs themselves. For example, if I, if I have a need for validation, if I have a need for connection, if I have a need for love, whatever that need is, I'm going to call it a need for now, not a one. I'll explain that in a second.

Let's say I want it from you. If you feel pressure to give me the need, let's say it's validation. You feel pressure to validate me. You feel pressure to love me. You feel pressure to show up for me. Whatever the thing is, when you deep down don't really want to, then there becomes this conflict within you. You go, Mark has this need.

but deep down, I don't really want to do that. So now there's this awkward pressure on you where you feel obligated. Do I want to do that or do I not? And I'll pick up on the fact that you feel obligated. It'll be a subtle facial expression. It'll be, it'll be hesitancy, pause from you, whatever it is. but if you really enjoy meeting that need for me, let's say it's validation. If you really enjoy validating that I did a great job on whatever a podcast, if you really enjoy giving me a hug, then I, I will

likely not pick up that I'm needy to you because there'll be no hesitancy in you doing that. Like let's say, let's say I say to you, Hey, Teal, you know, right now, if you're open to it, I could just use a hug. Could I, could I get a hug from you Teal? If you are totally open and aligned to giving me a hug, it's very unlikely that I will feel needy. I may feel it cause someone else in my past made me feel needy, but if we just take the, the bubble of you and I in an interaction, if I ask it,

Mark Rosenfeld (23:20.15)
respecting your freedom and your autonomy. And I say, look, if it's something you're open to, you don't have to, I'm totally fine if you don't, but a hug would mean so much to me right now. You are totally aligned. You give me a hug. I get my hugs. I get my need for connection, man. And I don't feel needy cause you didn't give me an awkward look or some sort of weird pause. On the other hand, if I said, Hey Teal, I really need you to just text me every hour and tell me that I'm really good at podcasting.

you would probably go like, and then I would feel needy. So in my experience, what I talk about with clients is really needs are not, not neediness. I'm sorry. Neediness is actually not up to you. It comes down to the receiver and whether or not they perceive that the need you're asking for is an obligation or a choice. If it is a choice, if they genuinely have their freedom and autonomy to do the thing you would like them to do,

then they will very rarely, if ever make you feel needy. On the other hand, if they perceive that what you're asking for does not come with an option for them to opt out, does not come from an option for them to have their freedom and autonomy, then you will likely be perceived as needy. And we've all been babies. We've all had parents and we've all had needs that at some point our parents went, not again. God, this, this kid, really this as well. So every single human being alive,

has had a parent who's had a weak moment, felt obligated to meet the child's needs instead of voluntarily wanting to and gave that subtle look that made the child feel needy. So this is why I think we're all predisposed to being worried about feeling needy because we've all, we've all been needy kids who basically obligated our parents at some stage, even if our parents are amazing. And then we grow up and we don't learn the difference between asking something for something where they can choose not to do the thing versus asking for something and the person feeling obligated to do it.

And so that's my difference between needs and neediness. A need is the emotional thing that you present. So it could be connection, validation, love, affection, those are the needs. Neediness comes in how the person receives it. Do they feel obligated? Like they don't have a choice to do the thing you want them to? God, I got a Texas woman every day. She's so needy. Notice I've got a Texas woman every day, not, I want a Texas woman every day. It's, God, now I have to. Versus, I have the choice here.

Teal Elisabeth (25:13.127)
Thank

Mark Rosenfeld (25:43.296)
And with that choice and that freedom, I don't believe any neediness will ever be perceived.

Teal Elisabeth (25:50.375)
So now I think we're into semantics now. Yeah, because I think the way I would interpret that, I agree with what you're saying. I think what I would interpret that to be is having needs is more of standards. Standards of how you want.

Mark Rosenfeld (25:52.014)
and gray or disagree.

Mark Rosenfeld (25:55.99)
Really?

Teal Elisabeth (26:09.945)
someone to operate being in your life and relating to them so that you guys can have a somewhat healthy relationship. Whereas neediness to me still comes from a place of a lack that you're looking someone else to fill.

That to me is not something we're wanting to put on anybody. And it doesn't matter how they interpret it or how you interpret it. If it's not something that you're feeling you can give to yourself and you're needing it from somebody else, that to me shows that there's room for your growth to strengthen within you. If you need a hug and you're wanting a hug, that's more of, I have a standard for, need connection in my life and I need people.

Mark Rosenfeld (26:43.51)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Rosenfeld (26:51.704)
But that's because you lack connection. At this time I need a hug because I'm lacking connection, right? So isn't that a lack?

Teal Elisabeth (26:55.843)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so, I mean, I know. It's a tricky subject. I don't want to lose our listeners here because it can be really confusing and complicated.

Mark Rosenfeld (27:06.99)
Sorry listeners, please I've enjoyed this conversation. Stick with me. T-List 2.

Teal Elisabeth (27:14.289)
I just, I really do think that neediness is more of the negative piece and having needs is more like having standards. If you have standards, there's ways of operating. okay, take, this is a great example. I have a girlfriend, she is a horrible texter and she lives in another state. So I never get to talk to her. We never get to connect very often. We see each other maybe once a year and I want to connect with her. I feel a need in our relationship that it's reciprocal

that there is room for connection there outside of just seeing each other in person. And I had to tell her the other day, hey, you know what? It doesn't feel good to me when I don't hear from you and I text you multiple times throughout the week and the month and you never respond. I feel like I'm not a priority. I feel like you don't value this friendship. so to me, that was me communicating a standard for the container of our relationship that she could decide if she wanted to meet that need.

we could call it a need or we can call it a standard, right? But it wasn't coming from a place of, need to hear from you. I miss you. What's wrong with you? Why won't you, know, am I, what am I, I'm not worth enough to you. To me, that would be the neediness that's seeking validation in me. I didn't need validation. I didn't need her to necessarily.

Mark Rosenfeld (28:13.71)
Yeah, yeah.

Teal Elisabeth (28:33.969)
be anything for me, I was just articulating that this is a standard I have for how I like to relate to people. And if this is not something that you think you can do, I don't know if I want to continue to relate to you as much. But it's such a slippery slope. It's such a slippery slope.

Mark Rosenfeld (28:48.084)
Yeah, I just, don't agree with you here. I see what you mean about it being semantics, but I do think the semantics are important because if you, if you lack connection with a friend and you feel sad because of that lack of connection, I think it's okay to say, Hey, I'm feeling sad due to our lack of connection. would really mean a lot to me if you would, if we could do a call once a month.

And then the person's either going to say, Hey, I can respond to your feelings and they'll reengage and they'll meet that need, which was lacking and will now be filled up. Or they will say, no, you're too needy. As in, don't want to do the thing and I don't have the capacity to give to you. And they will, and they'll withdraw from the friendship. But I guess I would.

Teal Elisabeth (29:28.433)
But that's not being needy.

Mark Rosenfeld (29:32.522)
It's, well, that's what I mean. Needyness in my opinion has to be in the eyes of the perceiver because you could get a guy that, like let's say a woman says, Hey, can you text me once a month since you're my boyfriend? Okay. Let's take it really extreme. I just want my boyfriend to text me once a month and he's like, she's too needy versus you could get a guy who says this girl wants to text me every minute.

she's too needy. So it's a perception on what is my capacity. And if, my capacity, if I can text my girlfriend once a month, which would obviously be very easy, below minimum, then really that shouldn't be perceived as needy by the average person. Only someone with a deep fear of loss of autonomy would feel that as neediness. But someone who's with a partner that wants them to text him every minute, that would, because autonomy is a need as well. So if you take away someone's autonomy,

through your need for connection, then you're basically trampling on their need for autonomy to get your own needs met. So I guess my difference in semantic here would be maybe the Buddhist thing would say, okay, it's important in your personal growth to never need from another human and to fill that cup yourself. But I think to do that, if you look at babies growing up into adults,

The only way we really learn to really fill our own cup is if we have many, many people, including trustworthy and attached parents consistently over and over again show up for us. And a lot of the Buddhist teaching is 30, 50 years of trying to learn, Hey, I can fill my own cup. But if you can imagine a baby that just never had a parent that showed up, never had a foster parent that showed up, never had a friend that showed up, that person

would be so wounded. There is not, there is not any way ever their psychology could adapt to just, I'll just meet my own needs unless they started to experience someone in real life who actually cared about them, who actually gave them a hug, who actually cared about them emotionally. I, I think what you're talking about is very, very advanced growth and it's maybe possible if you've had a lot of people meet your needs, but

Mark Rosenfeld (31:43.148)
I think it does encourage some of that independence culture, which is, I don't need anyone. I want people, but I don't need them. No, I'm sad. My friend hasn't contacted me. There is a lack there. It's not a self-worth lack, but there is a lack of connection in this relationship, which is making me sad. And to continue this friendship, yeah, I do need them to fill that. Or I do need some validation that I'm a good friend to them. Otherwise I can't continue. The validation is lacking, so I do need that. And that's where I think the semantics do matter here.

You agree or disagree?

Teal Elisabeth (32:14.919)
Yeah, I agree with you. Yes, I do need that, but I'm not needy for having that. And I don't think her seeing that and judging it as needy.

Mark Rosenfeld (32:20.556)
Yes. Yes. Correct. I agree with that.

Teal Elisabeth (32:28.485)
I don't think it's in the eyes of the beholder. really do think it's asking yourself, is this coming from a place of me feeling fully inadequate in my own self, or is this just a standard that I have that I want to hold so that I can feel good in my relationships with other people?

Mark Rosenfeld (32:43.342)
If my relationship, let's say my marriage isn't going well, isn't it normal that I would feel a lack? You know, if Sam, like let's say Sam just stops talking to me. I don't know, some trauma comes up for her, whatever. She just stops talking to me. And I'm like, Sam, I need connection from you. I'm like, I'm starting to decrease because your wife is, your husband is typically the number one person who would fill your connection bucket. Isn't it normal that I would feel a lack if Sam switches off to me?

Teal Elisabeth (33:13.189)
Yes, but is that coming from a place of you not feeling good in you or is that coming from a place of something that is just an experience and a standard for your container of this relationship?

Mark Rosenfeld (33:24.908)
I would say it's coming from a place of my marriage is one of the reasons I feel good about myself. But isn't that, are you saying that's like, I shouldn't have any of myself worth invested in the quality of my marriage?

Teal Elisabeth (33:32.315)
That's dangerous. I think it's dangerous when we're putting our happiness from our marriage as a main validator for our own happiness as a person.

Mark Rosenfeld (33:44.886)
Yeah. I just, I just don't think you can opt out of human validation and connection. yeah, I guess that's why we differ. This is interesting.

Teal Elisabeth (33:51.623)
So listeners, we would love to hear from you. We'd love to hear from you. Usually Mark and I agree on majority of subjects. So this is really, really good. I would love to hear in the comments. What is your take on needs, having needs and neediness? Does it come from your own lack of self? Does it come from the eyes of the beholder of who you're asking needs from? Are needs important and are they considered standards or is it something different? What?

What do we want to know from you? What you interpret that.

Mark Rosenfeld (34:21.198)
Yeah, let us know guys. I'd love to hear your opinion on this. I'm glad I've been looking for something at T I disagree on for a while, so it's good to find. I, I wanted to ask, cause this is a kind of a separate thing, but needs versus wants. Do you have a, I've kind of a simple thing that I say to clients and I'd be curious to hear yours. Do you have a simple way to differentiate the two?

Teal Elisabeth (34:41.851)
Needs versus wants.

Mark Rosenfeld (34:46.434)
I can share mine if you, if you want to respond to that. the simple thing I say to clients, tell me if you agree or disagree on this one. Needs, you may actually disagree because it's emotional. I would say the need is the emotional core and it's usually defined by an emotional word.

Teal Elisabeth (34:46.663)
Let's have you go first on this.

Mark Rosenfeld (35:00.738)
words. So it'll be something like a need would be connection, validation, love, affection, power and control, autonomy. So it's sort of a core thing that would make an, it's like an emotional bucket. Whereas a want would be a way to meet the need. So for example, if a need is love, a want might be a nice card.

with lots of writing on it, or it could be a touch or a massage or something like that. If the need is validation, then the want might be a promotion at work or your partner telling you you're a great lover saying those specific words. If the need is power or control, the want

might be, my partner, my partner knows my, my favorite food and brings it home for me. So in a sense we feel like, my partner really knows me and they bring home this food even when I didn't ask for it. So essentially the want is like a way to fill the bucket and the need is the bucket itself. And I usually say to clients,

Teal Elisabeth (35:56.697)
Aqueousing.

Mark Rosenfeld (36:15.628)
Perhaps you disagree. The need as in the bucket itself is a non-negotiable, as in feeling loved, feeling connected, feeling validated, feeling like you have some power in your life, feeling like you have some control on your life, feeling like you have a sense of autonomy. Those are the non-negotiables, but the wants, which is the ways to fill the bucket, those are wants. They give or take. So if your connection bucket is filled by daily texts, the daily text would be a want. You may have to settle instead for

a twice weekly phone call instead of daily texts. So it's different ways, but it still meets the love connection bucket. So that's my simple little visualization to help clients differentiate needs and wants. Curious to hear your thoughts.

Teal Elisabeth (36:54.735)
I like that. Yeah, I haven't dissected that to the depth that you have.

Mark Rosenfeld (36:59.758)
I think about this stuff too much, Teal. I've been in bed for three weeks. I'm like, eh, what do I think about that topic?

Teal Elisabeth (37:09.105)
For me, think again, it's about, it's figuring out for yourself, what are your non-negotiables? What is, I call it the magical box of safety. The things that allow you to feel fully safe inside of your heart space, knowing that you have this almost protective shield of your values, your standards. And that's those things, honesty, integrity, respect, trust. Those are the things that make you feel safe in you.

you can fully open up with the people that have proven that they can honor those qualities and For the people that you're not sure if they can honor those qualities That's when you have to really be a little bit more careful about how much you're giving how much you're sharing your love and being that open-hearted person So that you're not setting yourself up for failure or disappointment or hurt

But in terms of yes, how those values are demonstrated, that's up to each person to deliver that in a way that feels authentic in their own personality and style. And if we start to impose, this is how you have to show me this standard and need, then we are putting way too much control on that person and it doesn't allow things to flow.

Mark Rosenfeld (38:24.034)
Yeah. And I would say that's where it starts to feel needy. Cause if you say you have to write me a love note and the person really struggles with love notes, maybe they're not very, very good at that, but they are, what's their love language? They are more of an acts of service person. They might find the request.

needy because they struggle to do the love note when they really want to, I don't know, buy you flowers or do whatever the thing is. Doesn't mean you can't ask for a love note and I believe you should.

But there may be cases where someone can't or struggles with that particular way to fill the need. And maybe the love note then becomes more of a want. I mean, it depends how much you value love notes, of course, but maybe the love note becomes more of a want and the love itself remains the need, which you get through a slightly different means. And just quickly, Teal, you've spoken about this in the past, I think, where I remember you saying, Spencer's really good at loving me in certain ways, but words were not one of his strengths. And so you had to

you had to kind of make that a want. You knew he loved you, so your bucket was being filled, but you had to kind of make the, the, the, was it love notes or words? Something became more of a want until later on, he kind of learned to speak that language a little bit more. And you couldn't just be like, if he doesn't do it this way, immediately I'm breaking up with him. You still felt love in a Spencer-esque particular way. Is that, I talking right here? Yeah.

Teal Elisabeth (39:51.015)
Yeah, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. And I think that's where it can get really dangerous too because their needs can very easily start to form expectations. You know, if someone is feeling like they're wanting to give to you in the ways that you're telling them, I need this, I need you to text me every day, and then you start building that as an expectation of he, if he doesn't text me every day, then I don't feel good about myself.

then we're building up this container where, yeah, this person's gonna end up building resentment. So we have to be very, very careful about not letting expectations creep in as we are expressing what our needs are.

Mark Rosenfeld (40:32.204)
Yeah. And I would add to that respecting the person's autonomy if they can't do the specific thing, the want or need that you're asking for. And this can, this is really hard because you want your partner to be able to shop and meet your wants and your needs in turn, but maybe there is something in particular that for whatever reason they just can't do. And if you ask your partner for 10 wants or needs,

and they meet seven of them and they respectively and they respectfully say, for the other three, no, I can't do that, babe. Would you be open to working through it in a different way? It's not fair for you to just break up with them and say, well, you're not doing what I want you to do. Everything's a deal breaker. There has to be a time where your wants, not your needs, but your wants can be negotiated because I don't think you should ever be negotiated out of feeling loved. But if you want your partner to

I don't know, always be home at a certain time because that makes you feel loved. I always text you at a certain time because that makes you feel love. I'll always take you to a date in a certain place and maybe even mind read what the place is. That makes you feel loved. That's where you have to be willing to hear a no because if you can't do that, you can't respect your partner's autonomy. And that's where I think you will be perceived as needy. When your partner doesn't feel as a man, especially I can speak to this, when we can't feel, when we don't feel like we have the option to say no,

when our autonomy is gone, that is where we will really start to perceive you as needy. So you have to find a balance between you give us the window to, and the opportunity to say no while also understanding as your partner, we can't just say no to everything and opt out of your needs. And you've got to make that, I would say to this is you've got to make that decision. Okay. Is this person saying no too much to the point where my needs, my core needs are going unmet?

Or are they saying no a healthy amount to the point where they still have their autonomy? And I may be a little disappointed, but I'm not being perceived as needy.

Teal Elisabeth (42:31.077)
I think that's a really good way to wrap this up and take away everything that we kind of messy, missly talked about there.

Mark Rosenfeld (42:34.168)
Thank you, Tao. I appreciate you.

Mark Rosenfeld (42:39.104)
all over the shop there. that was fun guys. If you enjoyed the podcast, give us a five-star review. We'd really appreciate it. And if you want an appointment one-on-one, you can meet with the beautiful Teal. She is available via the link in the description. So go ahead and book down in there.

Teal Elisabeth (42:52.721)
been fun. We'll talk again next week, Mark.

Mark Rosenfeld (42:54.008)
Guys, thank you so much for joining us. We'll see you next week on The Tinder Project.